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So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

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20 hours ago, twinkle said:

Forty years ago we were PROMISED that joining the EUSSR would be plain sailing and the benefits would soon unfold for EVERYONE, the benefits never happened,we were just conned into paying to bring all the undeveloped countries of Europe up to a reasonable standard. WHAT THE FUCK WERE E HEATH and the rest of the traitors playing at. This has been the worst experiment with OUR DEMOCRACY that's ever been conceived and the sooner we're out the better.

The country and its economy would have been in tatters, completely broken. UK would have been poorer than the undeveloped ( surely less developed ) EU members.

It wasn’t an experiment in democracy but an experiment in economic integration to stabilise and maintain peace and increase trade. It worked and continues to work very well.

Democratic developments have progressed separately.

No good blaming Heath. The single market with its 4 freedoms is the love child of Thatcher. It has worked well and continues to do so.

Is supporting weaker areas to bring them up to better levels, where they can buy our goods and services any different to what happens in most modern countries. It certainly does in the UK, where England supports Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, or in the US where wealthy states support poorer ones. And the single market freedoms necessary for that to work are identical in every case.

free movement of goods, services, finance (or capital ) and people ( the work force ).

Its exactly what Tebbit envisaged when he said “get on your bike”

Long term it doesn’t result in levelling down, but levelling up. 

The incontrovertible truth is that, for whatever reason the UK has given notice to end its membership of the largest customs union and market in the world.

A single market and customs union is very different to a trade deal or WTO terms.

someone above posted to allow business to deal with trade terms, tarrifs, etc. Thing is they don’t have that power. Only governments can do that, and they’re fiendishly complicated.

The only thing businesses can do is up sticks and move capital and production somewhere else.

Edited by John Wright

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On 1/15/2018 at 11:15 AM, mojomonkey said:

I think it'll be a sad day when someone becomes answerable for something that their wife, husband or partner says.

Tell that to Clara Petacci. 

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23 hours ago, twinkle said:

Forty years ago we were PROMISED that joining the EUSSR would be plain sailing and the benefits would soon unfold for EVERYONE, the benefits never happened,we were just conned into paying to bring all the undeveloped countries of Europe up to a reasonable standard. WHAT THE FUCK WERE E HEATH and the rest of the traitors playing at. This has been the worst experiment with OUR DEMOCRACY that's ever been conceived and the sooner we're out the better.

Somewhere on the web (if anyone can be arsed to look for it) is a piece claiming that Heath hid the true intention of what we then referred to as the EEC from the electorate because if they knew the truth they would never accept it.  It had been hoped by the the end of the 90s Britain would cease to exist as a sovereign country (I presume the same was to have happened to other member states).  There is also text that suggests the UK had been earmarked by the EU (as now is) to be responsible for service & banking.  Germany was to have been responsible for manufacturing.  France for agriculture and Spain for fishing.

So, if it's to be believed, centralisation of all government function (which is what the unelected and unaccountable heads of the EU wish for) has been on the agenda for well over 40 years.

I think Juncker and his chums are now beginning to realise the trouble they'll be in when we leave - see Tusk's recent hope that we will change our minds.  The EU has a massive trade surplus over the UK and their industries are beginning to twitch. 

Remainers, what is it about messrs Juncker, Tusk, Barnier, Verhofstadt etc you find so appealing?  Damned if i can see it....

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49 minutes ago, The Phat Tog said:

Somewhere on the web (if anyone can be arsed to look for it) is a piece claiming that Heath hid the true intention of what we then referred to as the EEC from the electorate because if they knew the truth they would never accept it.  It had been hoped by the the end of the 90s Britain would cease to exist as a sovereign country (I presume the same was to have happened to other member states).  There is also text that suggests the UK had been earmarked by the EU (as now is) to be responsible for service & banking.  Germany was to have been responsible for manufacturing.  France for agriculture and Spain for fishing.

So, if it's to be believed, centralisation of all government function (which is what the unelected and unaccountable heads of the EU wish for) has been on the agenda for well over 40 years.

I think Juncker and his chums are now beginning to realise the trouble they'll be in when we leave - see Tusk's recent hope that we will change our minds.  The EU has a massive trade surplus over the UK and their industries are beginning to twitch. 

Remainers, what is it about messrs Juncker, Tusk, Barnier, Verhofstadt etc you find so appealing?  Damned if i can see it....

This sounds much more realistic than the junk JW is carping about in his post,but he is of course faithfully following the old remainer neo liberal tripe emanating from the EUSSR and it's acolytes. The gigs up. YIPPEE.

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Freedom of movement was there from the start - see Article 48 of the 1957 Treaty of Rome - as was ever closer union - see the preamble. 

I do see problems with the EU, particularly with the behaviour of the ECB (personally, I don’t see problems with the rabid leavers bugbear the ECJ - courts will always frustrate politicians). It is my opinion that Brexit will be catastrophic for some sectors of the U.K. economy, and I can’t see how it will benefit any. I think that in the name of independence the U.K. will lose a huge amount of sovereignty in practical terms, becoming increasingly irrelevant internationally. I think this is a great shame as Britain is a great country and should be trying to lead and improve the EU, whilst holding onto the exemptions (eg keeping the pound, staying out of Schengen). My worry is that failure to get a workable deal will mean a generation of stagnation followed by an inevitable attempt to re-join, which will be allowed on much less favourable terms, certainly meaning switching to the Euro, no rebate and joining Schengen at the very least.

So, as I continue to ask, if anyone can see any genuine opportunities or economic upsides to Brexit please post them - it really would lift the mood if any of you ardent leavers can show a silver lining that isn’t just symbolic. 

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1 hour ago, twinkle said:

This sounds much more realistic than the junk JW is carping about in his post,but he is of course faithfully following the old remainer neo liberal tripe emanating from the EUSSR and it's acolytes. The gigs up. YIPPEE.

But it isn’t junk. It’s the purpose of the establishment of the EEC and what it’s acheived.

Yes, there is a lot wrong, but no more than what’s wrong with any democracy. It’s like any other democracy, developing organically and slowly over time.

As for the suggestion of a carve up of industries, that’s pie in the sky. Spain wasn’t even in the EU. It was a totalitarian dictatorship. Financial services being an open cross border market wasn’t even dreamed about.

And the EU is no more a centralised command economy a la USSR than it’s a syndicalism totalitarian fascist enterprise.

It veers between Centre left and Centre right, just as its member states do.

And I don’t find Junker, Tusk, et al, appealing. They’re functionaries doing a job mandated by democratic governments.

But then I don’t find May, Boris, Gove, Farage appealing either. The corruption of the tories in favouring their rich capitalist friends at the expense of the normal man in the Street is truly disgusting. The EU Brexit debate is a smoke screen to mask that.

 

 

 

Edited by John Wright
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2 hours ago, The Phat Tog said:

Somewhere on the web (if anyone can be arsed to look for it) is a piece claiming that Heath hid the true intention of what we then referred to as the EEC from the electorate ...

That's a great story!

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28 minutes ago, John Wright said:

But it isn’t junk. It’s the purpose of the establishment of the EEC and what it’s acheived.

Yes, there is a lot wrong, but no more than what’s wrong with any democracy. It’s like any other democracy, developing organically and slowly over time.

As for the suggestion of a carve up of industries, that’s pie in the sky. Spain wasn’t even in the EU. It was a totalitarian dictatorship. Financial services being an open cross border market wasn’t even dreamed about.

And the EU is no more a centralised command economy a la USSR than it’s a syndicalism totalitarian fascist enterprise.

It veers between Centre left and Centre right, just as its member states do.

And I don’t find Junker, Tusk, et al, appealing. They’re functionaries doing a job mandated by democratic governments.

But then I don’t find May, Boris, Gove, Farage appealing either. The corruption of the tories in favouring their rich capitalist friends at the expense of the normal man in the Street is truly disgusting. The EU Brexit debate is a smoke screen to mask that.

 

 

 

John, you are of course correct about Spain being a military dictatorship under Franco.  Got a lot on my mind at the moment and left an important bit out.  The text implied that Spain was offered fisheries as a carrot to join once Franco's regime went down.  I'm not saying that should all be taken as gospel - it's just something I bumped into on line and put it out there for discussion.

I find it interesting that in amongst your list of reprehensible politicians you haven't mentioned Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott.  A more appalling and dangerous trio you'd be hard pressed to find.  God help us all if that lot get into power...

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3 hours ago, The Phat Tog said:

  I'm not saying that should all be taken as gospel - it's just something I bumped into on line and put it out there for discussion.

There is very little that can be taken as gospel on the internet.  If you are determined enough you can probably find sources to 'support' any particular belief you may have.

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7 hours ago, The Phat Tog said:

John, you are of course correct about Spain being a military dictatorship under Franco.  Got a lot on my mind at the moment and left an important bit out.  The text implied that Spain was offered fisheries as a carrot to join once Franco's regime went down.  I'm not saying that should all be taken as gospel - it's just something I bumped into on line and put it out there for discussion.

I find it interesting that in amongst your list of reprehensible politicians you haven't mentioned Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott.  A more appalling and dangerous trio you'd be hard pressed to find.  God help us all if that lot get into power...

I just mentioned those currently in Power and pulling the levers.

Your.mention of Spai/Fisheries was in the context of Heath and the negotiations in the early 1970’s so the timeline is clearly wrong

Edited by John Wright

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10 hours ago, The Phat Tog said:

you haven't mentioned Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott.  A more appalling and dangerous trio you'd be hard pressed to find.  God help us all if that lot get into power...

Abandoning the sensible moderate centre ground and moving into nationalist UKIP territory, the Conservatives are making it more likely that Labour will be elected.

I would definitely want to make a strong distinction between the economic right and the nationalist right. Two factions within Brexit which have very little in common. One essentially liberal, the other knuckle-dragging, flag waving and moronic.

Edited by pongo
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2 hours ago, pongo said:

Abandoning the sensible moderate centre ground and moving into nationalist UKIP territory, the Conservatives are making it more likely that Labour will be elected.

I would definitely want to make a strong distinction between the economic right and the nationalist right. Two factions within Brexit which have very little in common. One essentially liberal, the other knuckle-dragging, flag waving and moronic.

And of course most of Corbyns policies are mainstream Centre left, not Marxist or far left. It’s just the rabid Tory press that tries to pull the wool and falsely portrays them as extreme.

In fact quite a number are adopted by the economic right elsewhere

 

 

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14 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

Freedom of movement was there from the start - see Article 48 of the 1957 Treaty of Rome - as was ever closer union - see the preamble. 

I do see problems with the EU, particularly with the behaviour of the ECB (personally, I don’t see problems with the rabid leavers bugbear the ECJ - courts will always frustrate politicians). It is my opinion that Brexit will be catastrophic for some sectors of the U.K. economy, and I can’t see how it will benefit any. I think that in the name of independence the U.K. will lose a huge amount of sovereignty in practical terms, becoming increasingly irrelevant internationally. I think this is a great shame as Britain is a great country and should be trying to lead and improve the EU, whilst holding onto the exemptions (eg keeping the pound, staying out of Schengen). My worry is that failure to get a workable deal will mean a generation of stagnation followed by an inevitable attempt to re-join, which will be allowed on much less favourable terms, certainly meaning switching to the Euro, no rebate and joining Schengen at the very least.

So, as I continue to ask, if anyone can see any genuine opportunities or economic upsides to Brexit please post them - it really would lift the mood if any of you ardent leavers can show a silver lining that isn’t just symbolic. 

no it wasn't, it was freedom to work....

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comrade corbyn doesn't have an exit position, he makes it up as he goes along......

look at all the failing service due to the fact they are run by labours trade unions.....

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4 minutes ago, woody2 said:

comrade corbyn doesn't have an exit position, he makes it up as he goes along......

look at all the failing service due to the fact they are run by labours trade unions.....

Please explain that last line. To what do you specifically refer?

Then contrast with failing private enterprise, run by Tory donors, awarded contracts that they then mess up. East Coast, Rail Track, Southern, Carillion, G4S, National Grid, Power generating ... 

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