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TheTeapot

GAMMON

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So this term has crept up in the last few days, I'd never heard it before. Refers to people like Woody. I think its relatively amusing, although not a term likely I'm ever likely to use. There is a lot of silly stuff on twitter etc about it, some of it quite funny. 

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Wasn't some reporter trying to say it was racist?

I think it may have been first coined referring to the wall of Gammon, the gallery of rosie cheeked, middle aged Tory plants in the Question Time audience.

Wall.jpg

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It would be amusing in a comedy show or as a one off Internet comment - a wry observation. But the problem is that it becomes a trope, a way of categorising people and shelving what they are saying. There's no need to engage with their argument that way. 

The right have over the years built up a whole array of "newspeak" terms - 

  • Do-gooder
  • PC gone mad
  • Feminazi
  • Remoaner
  • SJW
  • Libtard
  • Snowflake
  • Cultural Marxism

And they've successfully moved some debates as these tropes become established. It's impossible to challenge racism without racism without the racists trotting out a load of nonsense about political correctness and the liberal agenda curtailing their freedom of speech (it will happen in a reply to this post). 

I don't think playing them at their own game is going to help. But people are trying it. Isn't using appearance, gender, age, and ethnicity to belittle a person's opinion what we are supposed to be against?

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21 hours ago, Declan said:

It would be amusing in a comedy show or as a one off Internet comment - a wry observation. But the problem is that it becomes a trope, a way of categorising people and shelving what they are saying. There's no need to engage with their argument that way. 

The right have over the years built up a whole array of "newspeak" terms - 

  • Do-gooder
  • PC gone mad
  • Feminazi
  • Remoaner
  • SJW
  • Libtard
  • Snowflake
  • Cultural Marxism

And they've successfully moved some debates as these tropes become established. It's impossible to challenge racism without racism without the racists trotting out a load of nonsense about political correctness and the liberal agenda curtailing their freedom of speech (it will happen in a reply to this post). 

I don't think playing them at their own game is going to help. But people are trying it. Isn't using appearance, gender, age, and ethnicity to belittle a person's opinion what we are supposed to be against?

Get rid of those words and that would be woody fooked...

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Declan, you make a very good point.  'Fakenews' is a case in point.  It has been repeated, so frequently and so widely since Trump injected it into the political conversation that now it has come into common use. When he first started using it, with the hand gestures to emphasise it, I just thought he was a clown, and that people wouldn't ever buy that as any kind of considered rebuttal.  But repetition has given the word some sort of credibility, so that just reciting it casts a doubt on the authenticity of a piece of news. That isn't to say that the news oughtn't to be challenged, but credible challenges consist of a proper critique, disclosing facts, not the recital of a word that has some resonance for the audience.

George Orwell's explanation of Newspeak:  "The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world view and mental habits proper to the devotees of IngSoc but to make all other modes of thought impossible. Its vocabulary was so constructed as to give exact and often very subtle expression to every meaning that a Party member could properly wish to express, while excluding all other meaning and also the possibility of arriving at them by indirect methods. This was done partly by the invention of new words, but chiefly by eliminating undesirable words and stripping such words as remained of unorthodox meanings, and so far as possible of all secondary meaning whatever."

Edited by guzzi
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24 minutes ago, the stinking enigma said:

You forgot conspiracy theory. Probably one of the first to fall victim to newspeak

If you mean that something can tend to be discredited simply by describing it is a conspiracy theory, I agree.

Probably the best approach is to forget the vocabulary being used, look for the known facts, and in the case of alleged conspiracy theories, apply occams razor with care.

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Conspiracy theory now means anything other than the official line. Not only that but if you happen to believe anything other than the official line you also must believe in lizard people and are hence a complete nutjob.

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58 minutes ago, the stinking enigma said:

Can anyone please give me a simplified explanation of occams razor? 

The simpler explanation is usually the best. 

Edited by Declan
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On 5/15/2018 at 9:40 AM, PottyLisa said:

Wasn't some reporter trying to say it was racist?

I think it may have been first coined referring to the wall of Gammon, the gallery of rosie cheeked, middle aged Tory plants in the Question Time audience.

Wall.jpg

But who plants Tory plants? What process do they have to have undergone to become "plants" as opposed to being any other political activist on a political programme?

And this gammon thing. Not being one to frequent Twatter overmuch, except for business contacts, I've only come across it for the first time this week thanks to Freggy using it in another thread, and I asked him about it. Man City fans have long referred to Fergie as "Bacon Face". It doesn't really work as a collective though, particularly for Brexit. First of all, there is the problem that a lot of the liberal trendies who might use the term are sort of inconveniently gammon coloured themselves. I know lots of people on the Remain side who are obese with high blood pressure having eaten too many pies, even if some of them are quite young. So conceivably they might sit on their lardy arses and call me gammon. That is rather incongruous though given that, although Brexit supporting, I am tall, slim, sporty and of somewhat Nordic colouring.

Funny old world.

Edited by woolley
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3 hours ago, the stinking enigma said:

Can anyone please give me a simplified explanation of occams razor? I did try reading about it one time but gave up.

In a nutshell, the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is usually the best. 

Edited by guzzi
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15 hours ago, woolley said:

But who plants Tory plants? What process do they have to have undergone to become "plants" as opposed to being any other political activist on a political programme?

And this gammon thing. Not being one to frequent Twatter overmuch, except for business contacts, I've only come across it for the first time this week thanks to Freggy using it in another thread, and I asked him about it. Man City fans have long referred to Fergie as "Bacon Face". It doesn't really work as a collective though, particularly for Brexit. First of all, there is the problem that a lot of the liberal trendies who might use the term are sort of inconveniently gammon coloured themselves. I know lots of people on the Remain side who are obese with high blood pressure having eaten too many pies, even if some of them are quite young. So conceivably they might sit on their lardy arses and call me gammon. That is rather incongruous though given that, although Brexit supporting, I am tall, slim, sporty and of somewhat Nordic colouring.

Funny old world.

You're right about the term Woolley, it's a massively sweeping generalisation.  It's by no means a catch-all for what it tries to convey.

It's spawned some great comedy on Twitter though :)

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