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Newbie

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Everything posted by Newbie

  1. She describes herself as a lesbian. Is that not true?
  2. The nostalgia of the white coat. BNF in one pocket, Oxford Handbook of Medicine in the other and just enough stethoscope tube protruding to create the right effect!
  3. Yes that's how it works. It only counts as stealing if the stuff doesn't belong to you when you take it.
  4. Well you can blame them for stealing stuff that didn't belong to them.
  5. Manx Care don't provide the medical staff that cover the races. Obviously, they need to be in a position to deal with any possible trauma cases sent in from the races. There is a discussion that takes place each day between the hospital and the event medical team to determine whether there is sufficient capacity for racing to go ahead. If they don't have capacity, racing wouldn't take place.
  6. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    If a race has been red flagged, there is no more race. What would be the point in allowing competitors on the course but beyond the incident to continue at racing speed. You would just be risking further incidents at a time when the emergency services are already busy, all for no good reason. Whether it is done by an electronic system or by using flag marshals (or both), an all course red flag is a perfectly reasonable thing, after which the riders on the course can be escorted back safely.
  7. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    There were no family members present on the island. The misidentification was first suspected as a result of the incident investigation carried out by ACUE. Walton hospital were informed of the suspicions. Cesar Chanal's mother was on the way to Liverpool at the time and was met there by staff from Walton who explained the situation to her. She was then able to provide a positive identification of Olivier Lavorel, bearing in mind that it was some 72hrs after the incident so he was probably more recognisable then, particularly to someone who already knew him
  8. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    Not entirely true Wrighty. If you receive a blow to the head in Rugby you undergo a Head Injury Assessment. If you fail that you then go through the concussion protocol which has periods of mandatory suspension. If you pass the HIA you can go straight back on the pitch. In the TT, if you suffer a concussion you are out for the event. Taken from the event safety plan: Any competitor suffering from a concussion injury during the fortnight will be automatically excluded from any further participation in the event.
  9. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    Dog tags have always been used in the past to confirm the ID of riders who are unable to be identified, and have always until now proved reliable. The dog tags were not located at the scene as they were inside the leathers in quite small, fairly well concealed pockets. They were subsequently recovered at the hospital. Prior to that, their photographs (obtained at the start of the event) were used to try to identify them. Suffice to say that after the incident, neither of them resembled those photographs. They were also checked for any identifying features but neither had any listed on their passports, and none were evident on them. They both had both of their names on their leathers. Once the dog tags were recovered (by separate people at separate locations) there was no reason not to believe the information they provided.
  10. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    I see what you are getting at, but the people who need to be informed as quickly as possible and in an empathetic way are the teams/families of the competitors involved. The public announcements that are put out by ACUE/IOMG are not being used to inform the teams and families. That is done in an entirely separate and private way. The public announcements are put out after agreement with the family (and in this case the Coroner) in order to inform the public. Why do the public need to be treated with empathy by the organisers? It is not the general public who are going through the trauma.
  11. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    The importance of the identity tags is stressed to riders. The requirements are clear in the regulations, and all competitors must sign a declaration saying that they are familiar with the regulations. They have to attend a briefing, and there are specific briefings carried out in French. The tags also have to be presented by the competitors to the scrutineers during the technical inspection process. At some point you have to rely upon competitors doing the right thing. The race organisers were completely unaware that sidecar riders/passengers may swap their ID tags. There have been posts here and elsewhere claiming that it was common knowledge. If it was common knowledge in the paddock why wasn't that information fed back to the Clerk of the Course by riders? Dog tags have been used as a means of identifying competitors for many years and have always proved effective up until now. Other means of identifying riders such as RFID chips in helmets or ID sown in to leathers are likely to be no better. For instance, in this particular case neither competitor was found to have a helmet on after the incident. Riders also often have more than one set of leathers and more than one helmet. It is not inevitably the case that the leathers/helmet presented at scrutineering are the ones used in a race. It comes back to the point that at some stage the competitors have to be given some responsibility in all of this. Other methods of identifying competitors that have been suggested such as use of dental records or DNA analysis are either completely impractical (as alluded to in John Wright's earlier post), or would result in significant delay in identification (in the case of DNA Analysis) which no doubt the organisers would then be criticised for. It may well be that one of the recommendations to come out of this is that there needs to be more than one means of establishing the identity of an otherwise unidentifiable competitor, such as a dog tag AND identity permanently attached to their leathers, and if that is the case it will be a positive outcome from a situation that has few other positives. Even then, whilst that would reduce the risk of this happening again, it wouldn't eliminate it entirely. Given that this situation has never been encountered before, the suggestion that the race organisers should have somehow foreseen it and taken action earlier is, in my view, pushing it a bit.
  12. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    No-one is making the issue about a dog tag. The fact is that this particular issue was about a dog tag. Whether the TT amounts to state sponsored killing of people is a different discussion, and the fact that you want to conflate the two is surely classic whataboutery.
  13. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    From the regulations: IDENTIFICATION TAGS 7.38. While qualifying and racing, all competitors are required to wear an identification disc attached around the neck by a material approved by a Technical Official or an identity label attached on the inside of the leathers adjacent to the zip. The disc or identity label must be permanently marked with the wearer’s full name and date of birth. Identification discs shall be of a durable material between 20mm and 25mm in diameter and having rounded edges with no sharp or ragged projections. They didn't comply. Who is responsible for their non-compliance?
  14. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    The team members (who then informed the families) were told once the organisers believed that they had established the identities. At that time there was no reason to believe that there had been a misidentification. Are you saying that the organisers shouldn't have done that and just left the team to work it out when their rider/passenger didn't return with all of the rest of the teams? There is always a pressure on the race organisers to let team members/relatives know what has happened before the news gets out, as it inevitably will. The timing of any formal announcement is then decided upon by the organisers after discussing it with the team/family. They have to be given time to contact the people they need to, but at the same time it is also true that the news will get out sooner rather than later via social media.
  15. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    I'm not sure about that, you may be right. In the context of TT I don't suppose that has ever been tested. If a UK based competitor was injured such that he/she required more than 3 months in hospital, they would almost certainly be flown back to the UK before then, partly for the convenience of family visiting etc, but also because they might require specific treatment not available on the island. This article from last year (not race related) seems to suggest otherwise, but doesn't specifically say whether she was a British Citizen.
  16. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    The situation is a bit more complicated than that. The reciprocal healthcare agreement between IoM and UK means that treatment required by a UK resident (in this case an injured rider) would be paid for by the Isle of Man Government. The same is true in reverse for Manx Residents becoming unwell whilst in the UK. However, there are a few caveats. The agreement does not cover the cost of repatriation which is why the IoM Government recommend that all IoM residents travelling to the UK have adequate travel insurance to cover repatriation if needed. It also only covers 3 months of treatment (not usually relevant in this situation). In practice, if a UK based rider becomes injured and needs to be airlifted as an emergency to the UK, usually the Manx health service foots the bill for the transfer because it is in their interests to ensure things happen as quickly as possible. Technically however, they could bill the injured rider for repatriation costs who would then claim on his/her insurance. If a rider becomes injured and receives treatment here (say for argument's sake a broken leg), and needed to be medically repatriated to the UK at a later date, but not as an emergency, they would be billed for the repatriation costs and those costs would be paid by the insurance. Competitors are informed of all of this before the event.
  17. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    I don't think that the insurance that competitors are required to have (and referred to in the regulations) is primarily intended to compensate them/their families for injury/loss of life. It is intended to cover the cost of medical treatment and/or repatriation. The personal accident part is included because it comes as a part of the insurance package but it is not the reason competitors are required to have insurance. Competitors are free to make their own life insurance arrangements on top of these, in the same way that any citizen is free to take out life insurance if they so wish, depending upon their personal circumstances.
  18. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    That does happen. It gets announced to the paddock, broadcast on Manx Radio, and within 10 minutes of the incident it was on Manx Radio's news site.
  19. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    Unfortunately, preventing a full explanation from being put in the public domain only serves to increase the amount of speculation, rumour and gossip, which in turn may lead to the situation wrighty describes.
  20. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    So you think that the sequence of events might have been that the fatal crash happened on the Saturday, the Coroner opened the inquest on the Monday and established the identity (erroneously as it turned out) and cause of death, and then adjourned the inquest. The Coroner then issued a temporary death certificate (in the wrong name presumably) to allow release of the body. The body was then transferred to a hospital in Liverpool, rather than being dealt with by a Funeral Director (as would more usually happen). The hospital then contacted the family for the purposes of identifying the body, even though the Coroner had already established an identity at the inquest. It is the only way it could have happened if the newspaper article is correct, but it seems unlikely.
  21. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    Well I can say with absolute certainty that on the day of the crash, before any identification had been made, that no medic from the tower, or anywhere else, spoke to the team/friends of either competitor, let alone berated them about dog tags. I would also go back to the point that at that stage there was no suggestion or knowledge of any misidentification, related to dog tags or anything else.
  22. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    I hadn't seen that report Roger, so thanks for posting the link to it. All I can say is that it is mis-reported, and I would not want to speculate on how that might have happened. An obvious question is why would the body of a deceased competitor, someone that was the subject of a Coroner's Inquiry here on the Isle of Man, be transported to Liverpool whilst the Coroner's investigations were ongoing? The answer is that it wouldn't and it wasn't.
  23. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    Normally your posts are well thought out Roger, but this time you are speculating. It is the organisers who realised that there had been a misidentification and they along with Walton hospital (not Aintree) who informed the respective families
  24. Newbie

    TT 2022 ??

    True. And then you either leave them to explain that to all their friends and family, and anyone else they meet, or you try to take that load off them by getting the information into the public domain (with their permission)
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