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Tt Races: Green Racers' Manx Spirit


Brizo
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Seriously though a lot quicker than I would have expected and something that can only enhance the TT. How long before a 100 mph lap though? 2 years?

 

Could be. The batteries can do the distance, but I imagine there's big gains to be made in terms of weight.

 

 

The batteries CAN'T do the distance, or the bikes would have done 100mph today. The motors are capable of quite high speeds, and could have easily produced lap times of over 100mph on a shorter course. But it isn't the motors that are the limiting factor; it's the batteries.

 

I was surprised that some bikes managed speeds in excess of 80mph, but it's going to be a struggle to obtain significantly higher speeds in the future because of the vast amount of additional energy required to overcome wind-resistance as speed increases.

 

Anyway, not a bad effort, but they really do need to run it on a shorter course. After watching the petrol bikes, the electric bikes looked VERY slow. On a shorter course they wouldn't have to worry about conserving energy, and could go much faster.

 

If they keep to the full TT course next year, it would not surprise me to see the manufacturers developing battery packs that can be swapped very easily. Then it would be worthwhile to have a pit-stop to change batteries, and we would see much faster lap-times and more exciting racing. At the moment, it's not a race, it's an endurance test.

 

Be interesting to see how much coverage this gets in the UK press over the weekend.

 

S

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The batteries can do the distance, they did it at nearly 90mph, that's a great result. It's interesting that the performance differed so much too, which means some teams have made bigger advances than others, that's a good thing.

 

These bikes will be raced on short circuits too, but an endurance race is important for developing the tech, there was a great interview with the boss of team agni where he said exactly that. He also said the TT was an important way of silencing sceptics, anyone can make an electric bike go fast round a test track, but making a bike go fast around the gruelling TT course is a whole other kettle of fish, something that's not been lost on you these last few weeks.

 

Yes, next years event has already been confirmed to be multiple laps with battery changes, which should produce some very interesting technology.

 

It's all good, and it happened here first. Do a google news search for TTGXP, the amount of coverage is amazing.

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The batteries can do the distance, they did it at nearly 90mph, that's a great result. It's interesting that the performance differed so much too, which means some teams have made bigger advances than others, that's a good thing.

 

These bikes will be raced on short circuits too, but an endurance race is important for developing the tech, there was a great interview with the boss of team agni where he said exactly that. He also said the TT was an important way of silencing sceptics, anyone can make an electric bike go fast round a test track, but making a bike go fast around the gruelling TT course is a whole other kettle of fish, something that's not been lost on you these last few weeks.

 

Yes, next years event has already been confirmed to be multiple laps with battery changes, which should produce some very interesting technology.

 

It's all good, and it happened here first. Do a google news search for TTGXP, the amount of coverage is amazing.

 

Agreed.

 

This kind of technology is going to be where it's at in the future, (for all of us, not just racing machines), the fact that electric bikes have got round the TT course with such fast average speeds is nothing short of amazing, doubly so considering it's the first attempt. (Whatever changes they make for next year are all to the good and interesting as well, maybe in the future we'll be changing batteries in our cars in less time than we fill them with petrol now?)

 

Same as the old-school (i.e. oil powered) motorsports and high-end cars, the technology filters down and becomes affordable and commonplace in time, the TTGXP could be the start of that process when it comes to electric power, or at least a part of the wider movement to shift to it.

 

I'm not the world's biggest fan of the TT, and there are certainly some questions to be answered about various aspects of this year's set up, but to be quite honest I find very little to criticise when it comes to the TTGXP - it has been a world first and we should be proud of that.

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A superb effort. Priceless publicity for the Isle of Man. Terrific lap average from Rob Barber. This will be being discussed around the world I am sure. Well done organisers.

 

According to one of the riders, the teams were taking it easy on Tuesday to ensure they completed the course and qualified. Most teams finished with 1/3 power remaining, so will cane it closer to the wire in todays practice to see how quick they can go. Should see more non finishers therefore, but also some even better times.

 

Cane it? The winner improved his lap speed by 3mph, and said the bike was "spluttering" as he approached the finish.

 

Until batteries improve significantly, speeds are not going to improve much. Because of wind resistance, a 10% improvement in average speed is going to require something like a 30% improvement in battery life.

 

The promoters know this, which is why the race will be on the much flatter and shorter Billown circuit next year.

 

But credit to you, Slim, that you have resisted the urge to crow over the fact that one bike managed to average over 80 mph. I am happy that my expectations were exceeded, and also that it was a Lynch motor (or two) that won the race. These bargees know their motors, you know. :cool:

 

S

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The batteries can do the distance, they did it at nearly 90mph, ...

 

Oh dear, Slimbo. You were replying to somebody who mentioned lapping at 100mph. One bike managed 87mph, three managed over 70mph, and the majority were under 70mph.

 

What that says is that they CAN'T do the distance at 100mph.

 

You'd argue black was white.

 

S

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Cane it? The winner improved his lap speed by 3mph, and said the bike was "spluttering" as he approached the finish.

 

I said 'most teams'. The brammo boys added something like 10mph to their lap times. Quite a significant improvement.

 

Until batteries improve significantly, speeds are not going to improve much. Because of wind resistance, a 10% improvement in average speed is going to require something like a 30% improvement in battery life.

 

I think it's simply too early to make calls like that, the bikes are more complex than you're giving them credit for. The Brammo team for example made a better than 10% improvement, which appears to be largely down to better power management.

 

The promoters know this, which is why the race will be on the much flatter and shorter Billown circuit next year.

 

But credit to you, Slim, that you have resisted the urge to crow over the fact that one bike managed to average over 80 mph. I am happy that my expectations were exceeded, and also that it was a Lynch motor (or two) that won the race. These bargees know their motors, you know. :cool:

 

Billown? Are you sure?

 

I don't crow, this isn't about points scoring, I'm genuinely interested in this tech and I disagreed with your suggestion that it isn't driven by this kind of racing or that battery tech isn't moving along at a rapid pace. Just the fact that agni are involved so heavily means that this race on our island will make a difference in my view.

 

I think that efficiency is vital as we move away from the abundant power that comes from fossil fuels. A lot of people dismiss this kind of technology, and things like wind turbines, because they're comparing it to the kind of power consumption we've been able to afford with petrol, but that kind of power consumption hasn't got a future. That isn't my perspective at all, its not a fair comparison. We've got more scope to improve than simply mimicking fossil fuels power output and hoping for the best.

 

 

Oh dear, Slimbo. You were replying to somebody who mentioned lapping at 100mph. One bike managed 87mph, three managed over 70mph, and the majority were under 70mph.

What that says is that they CAN'T do the distance at 100mph.

You'd argue black was white.

 

Sigh. Why do we have to cover the same stuff over and over?

 

The petrol bikes would lap faster if they carried half the petrol. What's your point? That the energy source is a limiting factor, of course it is, but it isn't the only one.

 

Yes, the engines alone may be able to go faster, but not at an acceptable level of power consumption. Who are you to say the engines are 100% efficient, when the manufacturer this week turned up with one that performed significantly better than another version of it's own engine? The other teams made gains through power management.

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The petrol bikes would lap faster if they carried half the petrol.

 

Don't talk nonsense. They would go a tiny bit faster, yes. But the electric bikes would double their speed with better batteries. There just isn't any comparison.

 

You evidently STILL don't comprehend that battery capacity is the only limiting factor of any significance.

 

The difference in bike performance could be down to several factors, including teams thinking it would be better to finish slowly than not at all.

 

S

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You evidently STILL don't comprehend that battery capacity is the only limiting factor of any significance.

 

The difference in bike performance could be down to several factors, including teams thinking it would be better to finish slowly than not at all.

 

Um, didn't you just contradict yourself?

 

As for the batteries, check the difference between the Li-Ion batteries and the Li-Polymer and then continue to sprout crap about how batteries can't significantly improve. Take a look at some of the breakthroughs techlike lithium sulphor too, five times Li-Ion power for the same weight? Imagine the effect that'd have on the race.

 

Looking forward to next years event, and the improvements the teams bring with another year of development.

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You evidently STILL don't comprehend that battery capacity is the only limiting factor of any significance.

 

The difference in bike performance could be down to several factors, including teams thinking it would be better to finish slowly than not at all.

 

Um, didn't you just contradict yourself?

 

No. Read it again slowly.

 

As for the batteries, check the difference between the Li-Ion batteries and the Li-Polymer and then continue to sprout crap about how batteries can't significantly improve.

 

Could you please do me a small favour? Instead of making up what you claim I said, please quote my actual words.

 

Take a look at some of the breakthroughs techlike lithium sulphor too, five times Li-Ion power for the same weight? Imagine the effect that'd have on the race.

 

I had read that hype about sulphur batteries before you quoted the article. It would be wonderful if it were true, but it's not. Nobody is making them, and nobody has any idea when or if they will ever go into production. You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. Remember how excited you got about the 150mph bike with a range of 150 miles? Reality: 74mph and 37 miles. Almost exactly one eighth of what was claimed.

 

Slight difference, I think you'd agree.

 

S

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I had read that hype about sulphur batteries before you quoted the article. It would be wonderful if it were true, but it's not. Nobody is making them, and nobody has any idea when or if they will ever go into production. You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. Remember how excited you got about the 150mph bike with a range of 150 miles? Reality: 74mph and 37 miles. Almost exactly one eighth of what was claimed.

 

We'll just have to wait for next year to see how wrong you are again.

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I had read that hype about sulphur batteries before you quoted the article. It would be wonderful if it were true, but it's not. Nobody is making them, and nobody has any idea when or if they will ever go into production. You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. Remember how excited you got about the 150mph bike with a range of 150 miles? Reality: 74mph and 37 miles. Almost exactly one eighth of what was claimed.

 

We'll just have to wait for next year to see how wrong you are again.

 

You think it's my turn to be wrong? :D

 

G

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Let's look at this as it is, when the internal combustion engine arrived people said it would never take off and you couldn't get it much faster than a few miles per hour, these bikes are in their infancy and again we have all the sceptics, there is endless scope now for this to move forward and what will the sceptics say once they start approaching speeds and ranges that make them a viable alternative. Luddites will always be critics of new technology, forward thinkers will embrace it and develop it.

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Let's look at this as it is, when the internal combustion engine arrived people said it would never take off and you couldn't get it much faster than a few miles per hour, these bikes are in their infancy and again we have all the sceptics, there is endless scope now for this to move forward and what will the sceptics say once they start approaching speeds and ranges that make them a viable alternative. Luddites will always be critics of new technology, forward thinkers will embrace it and develop it.

 

It''s not about bikes or engines, it's about battery technology. Battery-powered electric motors predate the internal combustion engine in boats and motor vehicles; indeed there were a lot of electric boats on the Thames more than a hundred years ago. However, whilst the internal combustion engine has taken off by leaps and bounds, the humble battery has not made anything like such rapid progress. And it's not for want of trying. Gigantic sums have been spent by loads of big companies over the decades, but batteries have nothing like the energy to weight ratio of liquid hydro-carbons. Or even hydrogen.

 

Some very silly people seem to think that the TTXGP is suddenly going to be the catalyst for a breakthrough in battery technology. That is utter twaddle. I'm not saying there won't be a breakthrough, but it won't be the TTXGP that causes it. Anybody who thinks that is extremely naive.

 

S

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