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Amadeus
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Usually i don't post in a thread when it has already succumbed to the Godwin's Law but i just had to ask:

 

Is anyone actually genuinely surprised at the ignorant comments that this proposed Mosque has received?

 

when i take in to consideration the bad press that Islam has received due to the terrorism activities of the extremists, add in a growing move toward secularism in the general consciousness, sprinkle a dose of 'fear of the unknown' in and serve it with a 'group dis-intelligence mentality' i find it hard to believe that these people actually are opposed to a Mosque, more likely they simply want to fit in with what they perceive as common opinion.

 

worst of all, when i see them do it, i think to myself, that i too sometimes might get caught in the same trap of opinionated ignorance.

 

i strongly support free speech, freedom of religion and secularism. Let them have their place to worship. what is there to be afraid of, some sort of foothold situation?

 

so what branch/sect does the local Muslim community belong to?

 

and are they creationist Muslims, Muslims who believe in evolution or mixed?

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@Lao : The bad press, has had an affect on every Muslim, as an example, when my family and I travel, we are often "randomly" selected for a security check, and when booking Muslim meals on a plane, we are often given plastic cutlery whereas everyone else is given metal - Not that it matters to me personally - again its one of those interesting observations.

 

regarding the local Muslim community - its made up of a diverse mix of asian, middle eastern and British Muslims. we all pray together without letting cultural differences get in the way of our religion.

 

In the Quran, Allah discribes the creation of man, and sites Adam as the first man.

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Rog, although you purport to know a lot about Islam, much of what you say is at best misleading and at worst factually incorrect. Your posts remind me of some BNP propaganda that was posted through my door prior to an election in the UK a few years ago, where the author had gone to great lengths to research the subject, in order to not appear ignorant, but the underlying prejudice still seeped through.

 

I see no reason to object to the building of another religious establishment simply because it will be designed for Muslims.

Identify anything that is incorrect.

 

The issue remains, Islam is incompatible with the modern world. It is the antithesis to Western democracy and should be resisted in every possible way.

 

What I will say is that (thankfully) not all Muslims are truly observant just as (regrettably) so most Christians are not fully observant of the teachings of Christ and as for our lot – it depends who’s watching and how ‘frum’ they are!

 

 

 

One point re plastic eating utensils, this is not due to any fear that someone noshing of a halal meal is going to run amok but rather that there is assurance that the items have not been in contact with anything that is haram (unclean or unfit).

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@Rog: regarding the plastic. However, flying on the same airline on the same route pre - 9.11 we were given metal. - Like I said in my post it does not concern me too much - only an observation on my part.

 

Thank you.

 

It's called profiling.

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It's called profiling.

 

Agreed, all tooth fairy worshipers are nutters, including you!

 

Now you're making an assumption.

 

Remember that being a believer in a God is not a requirement to be Jewish. Being Jewish is as much about nationality and tradition as about religion. OK there are more than a few Orthodox and even down (up?) to Liberal – Reform who would argue the point, but that's life.

In my case I had a Jewish upbringing (Western Reform) but to simply assume that because I am knowledgeable in respect of Christianity and The Bible, Judaism and The Torah, Haphtarah, and Talmud, as well as several sects of islam, the koran and many hadith doesn’t mean that I’m religiously inclined, just learned.

 

I first took an interest in comparative religion as a child living in Onchan when I couldn’t rationalise what I was hearing about what Christians believed with what kids were doing to me.

 

It’s an interest that I’ve kept up for nearly 60 years now and it still saddens me how few Christians follow the teaching of Christ yet gladdens me that there are many Mohammedans who don’t follow to the letter the teaching of the old fraud mohammad.

 

In fact I happen to be a ‘Hard Atheist’ which is one of the many reasons that I hate and despise islam more than any other cult for what it does to people caught up in its vile web.

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If, as you said earlier, the Jewish dispora assimilated in every way apart from religious worship can Jewishness be more about nationality than relgion?

 

I didn’t use the word ‘assimilate’, I deliberately used the word integrate. There’s a huge difference.

 

Sikhs, Hindu’s Buddhists, even the bloomin’ Candomblé lot, (and there’s more than a few of them in the Portuguese immigrants!), they all for the most part seek to be and in fact are assimilated into The Great Unwashed, and moreover assimilate TGU into their populations as well.

 

OK the Poles can be a bit stand-off-ish but that’s just a ‘Pole’ thing I suppose but sill and for all it’s assimilation.

 

Our lot don’t assimilate. But we DO integrate. Both ways.

 

And so can Judaism be more about nationality than just religion, of course it can, and is.

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It's called profiling.

 

Agreed, all tooth fairy worshipers are nutters, including you!

 

Now you're making an assumption.

 

Remember that being a believer in a God is not a requirement to be Jewish. Being Jewish is as much about nationality and tradition as about religion. OK there are more than a few Orthodox and even down (up?) to Liberal – Reform who would argue the point, but that's life.

In my case I had a Jewish upbringing (Western Reform) but to simply assume that because I am knowledgeable in respect of Christianity and The Bible, Judaism and The Torah, Haphtarah, and Talmud, as well as several sects of islam, the koran and many hadith doesn’t mean that I’m religiously inclined, just learned.

 

I first took an interest in comparative religion as a child living in Onchan when I couldn’t rationalise what I was hearing about what Christians believed with what kids were doing to me.

 

It’s an interest that I’ve kept up for nearly 60 years now and it still saddens me how few Christians follow the teaching of Christ yet gladdens me that there are many Mohammedans who don’t follow to the letter the teaching of the old fraud mohammad.

 

In fact I happen to be a ‘Hard Atheist’ which is one of the many reasons that I hate and despise islam more than any other cult for what it does to people caught up in its vile web.

So do you need to believe in God to be a Christian?

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Jack - I think you can be a Christian without believing in God. You could choose to follow the teachings of Jesus ("Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" and "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" aren't bad ways to live ones life for example) without believing him to be the son of God. The ceremonial aspect can't be overlooked either - the Church is a backdrop to important occasion in our lives - saying goodbye (funerals) and hello (christenings & weddings) to family members. How many people describe themselves as lapsed catholics for example.

 

Ok Rog how can you make in one breath a statement that jews integrated in every aspect but religion. Then claim I Jewishness is about nationality not religion (I don't doubt that). Then criticise Muslims in the next, for seemingly the same thing. It is like you are using whatever arguement you have to hand that assists you in winning the current point, but without any consistency across the bulk of your post. Other than the ever present hatred of course.

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Ok Rog how can you make in one breath a statement that jews integrated in every aspect but religion. Then claim I Jewishness is about nationality not religion (I don't doubt that). Then criticise Muslims in the next, for seemingly the same thing. It is like you are using whatever arguement you have to hand that assists you in winning the current point, but without any consistency across the bulk of your post. Other than the ever present hatred of course.

 

There’s no lack of consistency at all.

 

The huge difference is that whereas a Jewish population will seek to integrate with the host nation and to do so on a permanent basis islam requires that the host nation should be changed to meet the demands that it makes.

 

Remember that in islam everyone not a mohammedan is wrong. That the imperative is to convert all to islam and those people who are ‘of the book’ may only remain with their religion in an Islamic society if they a) ‘adopt and follow sha’ia, b) pay the ‘poor tax’, and c) be utterly subjugated to islam as the dominant force.

 

For those unfortunates NOT ‘of the book’ the options are stark. Convert or die.

 

I guess it could be reduced to three states. When the dominant force Judaism excludes, Christianity invites, and islam compels.

 

The other factor to bear in mind is that in islam the world comprises of two ‘houses’. Collections of tribes is a closer description, one ‘house, dar ul islam is the ‘house’ of islam and dar ul haarb is the rest. The house of conflict.

 

OK there are interim states such as the ‘house of treaty’ and so on where there is a temporary cessation of conflict and the imperative to take over but the emphasis must be on temporary since all of the states between dar ul islam and dar ul haarb are transitory.

 

It is the dar ul islam concept that results in the explanation of the secular conflict, mainly between the sunni and shi’te sects in which both believe the other is to a sufficient extent blasphemous that the blood on those killed ‘is on their own hands’. Also the reason why our concept of national borders is at odds with theirs since for the devout their border is that of dar ul islam.

 

Then there is the matter of closing ranks when ‘attacked’ by non-believers. To the devout the duty to protect a fellow mohammedan irrespective of his crime against an unbeliever overrides any requirement, legal, moral, or otherwise, to ‘shop’ him or her.

 

Then there is the matter of law itself. To the devout there is only one law, that of sha’ia. Man made law is both unnecessary and if contra sha’ia it must NOT be obeyed since to do so would itself be blasphemous.

 

That concept goes even further since to take part in the election relating to a body that has law making powers that can overturn sha’ia is also blasphemous. It is why so many mohammedans don’t vote in the UK, and why trying to introduce Western democracy into a predominantly Islamic country such as Iraq is akin to trying to introduce voodoo into the Vatican.

 

It is for all these reasons and more that I really do loath islam. An inhuman denigrating archaic superstitious based cult invaded by a con man that imprisons people in their own fears and false beliefs.

 

It certainly explains why a Christian or a Jew might say ‘I will die for my beliefs’ whereas a mohammedan will say YOU will die for my beliefs. Goodness only knows history is saturated with examples.

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I find it very disappointing to see and hear that there are so many people that are mis-informed about my religion.

 

Manxeyes, Have you been to the House of Mannanan in Peel? The themed ground floor galleries describe how new peoples and cultures have been assimilated into the Isle of Man throughout the ages. They certainly helped me understand a bit more about this little Celtic island when I moved across from England.

 

What are your thoughts?

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