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Or: Tynwald is clearly being abused by some members who are effectively using it as a retirement fund.

In the Report ‘Government Support for the Sefton Group’ there are a number of what might be called core or central propositions which if successfully challenged render the supporting explanations stan

It is self interest, short-sightedness, poor planning, and thinking we still live in the 1950's, that has made Douglas the ever-worsening shit hole it is. People need to stand up against such iss

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Bladerunner. I think most people would be at their wits end dealing with some of the people he has to deal with. Someone likened it to me the other week as being the manager of a third division football team. You might be Rafa Benitez, but if all your players are third division football players, and all you can do is pay third division wages, then the best your ever going to be is the manager of a third division football team. I'm not saying that Bell is Benitez, but the problem with Brown's government was that he was shit scarred of making a decision because it would be criticised by a bunch of militant bell end so nothing happened for 5 years, now Bell is happy to make decisions but the way he basically has to bludgeon COMIN to get them through is opening up to criticism that he ignores democratic process. Sefton is a bit different because there are too many vested interests and potential Manx mafia skeletons in the cupboard but I wouldn't question his motives particularly. We need to start acting like a first division club before its too late but we can't whilst we have such a pitiful bunch in the House.

The CM is not at his wits end with his COMIN 'colleagues' because he has paid them to tow the line. He has made sure that they dance to his tune.

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Stu Peters, on 24 Apr 2013 - 22:55, said:

Well, whatever the rights and wrongs of this and Pinewood, that's what we've got and I welcome the firm leadership.

Firm leadership is fine if it is leading you in generally the right direction.

 

If I want to be driven to London but it appears we are heading in the opposite direction as the driver ignores every argument and bit of evidence pointing to the fact that London is the other way I am not going to sit back at think we may be going the wrong way but at least we are doing it decisively.

 

If alternatively there are 3 routes and the driver believes option A is the best but I think it is option C then I might have a different opinion of the best option but at least can see understand what the driver is doing.

 

My view of Bell and Teare at present is that in many instances the public evidence is not backing up their decisions. Now that might be because they know about major hold ups on Options A, B and C which is not public knowledge so we have to set up apparently in the wrong direction. But they appear singularly unable to explain that except to say we know what we are right and if questioned further

rather than explain, you are given the option that as the drivers they are in charge and you can either stay in the car and just accept what they say and see where it takes you ot get out and walk.

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Just read the whole Hansard about the Sefton and to be honest, what hboy said about AB being at his wits end with his fellow MHKs, is written there in black and white.

 

With the notable exception of Mr Ronan who asked a sensible question the rest were just the kind of taunting you find primary school children doing, including name calling.

 

This answer by AB to one of PKs latter questions sums it up nicely:

 

Is it any wonder, Mr Speaker, that the public have no confidence in the

Government of the Isle of Man or the House of Keys? This constant denigration and assertion of

corruption, of cronyism, that we are only helping our friends, is utterly disgusting. It is insulting to

every single person sitting in this Chamber, and I hope people recognise the damage with the

language that the Member for Onchan uses constantly, with no truth whatsoever.

 

Quite,

 

I dont know how AB keeps his cool so well (despite what people call hissy fits on here) when he is subject to the kind of questions that are only asked because the MHK asking the question, thinks it will cause the most embarrassment.

 

That is a sh1t reason for asking a question in Tynwald although it does seem to be the norm these days.

So what was the sensible question from Mr. Speaker?

Only on the Isleof Man could a CM state that the public has no confidence in his govt & remain in office

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Two policemen on duty outside the Manx Museum before, during and after Roamin' COMIN meeting.

 

They used to say parts of Liverpool were dangerous because the policemen walked round in pairs. Why have they started doing it in the IOM where the crime rate is low and the chances of a riot at a public meeting are minimal?

There were 2 police officers present at the last one in Ramsey junior school but no police presence at the meetings previous to that.

Apparently Quintin Gill was spotted in the museum & I can only guess that the police were hunting him down

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Don't moan unless you voted in the first place, we put them in and its the public vote or lack of it that will get them out, Bell was on form tonight despite the odd village missing its idiot apart from Kirk Michael. They can't win sometimes no matter which way they do things and I would put the house on if they'd have done jack shit and possibly a few ppl were made redundant Cannan, Karran, Houghton and that Bobby Morton from the unions would be changing their record and demanding the gov do more. That other lunatic Quayle too, always bangin on about the gov investing in local businesses and supporting the local economy, as soon as they do he is following the populist outcry of foul play. What planet are some of these ppl on Cannan, Quayle, Houghton all wannabes, all happy to take the extra money for not actually doing anything.

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Lost Login - you make some valid points, although (to continue the theme) as a former taxi driver I sometimes DID know a better route than my fare. The fact that IOMG seems so convinced by the Pinewood and Sefton deals makes me think they DO have information that's not in the public domain - and transparency is sometimes as useful in politics and business deals as playing a poker hand face up.

 

Government has to make money and save money - hence the cuts (which many people have been saying were needed for years and only complain when it affects them personally) and the high stakes, high risk investments. I'd hate to be a Manx politician - do nothing and you're blamed for inaction, do something and every 'expert' in the world second-guesses you.

 

I'm a taxpayer too (and responsible for giving work to four people who are also paying taxes and contributing to our economy) and - personally - I'd rather wait and see how both these deals work out before condemning them. A bigger worry is that if my trust is misplaced, who do we vote for instead?

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Don't moan unless you voted in the first place, we put them in and its the public vote or lack of it that will get them out, Bell was on form tonight despite the odd village missing its idiot apart from Kirk Michael. They can't win sometimes no matter which way they do things and I would put the house on if they'd have done jack shit and possibly a few ppl were made redundant Cannan, Karran, Houghton and that Bobby Morton from the unions would be changing their record and demanding the gov do more. That other lunatic Quayle too, always bangin on about the gov investing in local businesses and supporting the local economy, as soon as they do he is following the populist outcry of foul play. What planet are some of these ppl on Cannan, Quayle, Houghton all wannabes, all happy to take the extra money for not actually doing anything.

I did vote but had no opportunity to vote with regard to Bell or Teare who appear who appear to be defacto running the Govt.

 

As for your point I agree that Politicians can not win at times and those not in the Govt take advantage at times but that is the art of politics.

 

If the Govt had done nothing and the Sefton had collapsed I am sure some would have complained. I might have been one of them. You might say I am being totally fickle and will not support the Govt on principle because at present I do not support the support the Govt has given the Sefton.

 

I would disagree. There maybe arguments for supporting the Sefton and equally there are arguments for not. Which you do maybe a question of personnal judgement. I accept that as long as that judgement is supported by facts and argument. The argument for the current support does not stand up to scutiny and questioning. If it did even if I might not personally think it was the correct decision I would accept the decision. Equally if they did nothing I would accept that decision if the logic behind the decision made sense but not if it appeared argument used in supporting the case was fudamentally flawed. That is all I ask. i.e not that decisions agree with my personal beliefs but rather that the facts and arguments stand up to srutiny.

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And to my mind the facts as presented DO make a compelling case for the support.

 

The counter arguments are all based on 'what if'. 'Maybe' a liquidator would be able to sell off the profitable bits of the business. To where? Would we want our hotels owned by a banking consortium in Australia (as a completelty random example of where the owners of Manx companies might reside)? The facts as presented (and we might be being told huge whoppers) make it a no-brainer to me - Sefton Group flushes £7m a year through the Manx economy in wages, NI, tax, supplies, VAT etc. and the loan (repayable after 5 years with interest) is £1.3m. At worst the government loses that and buys a piece of (maybe) overpriced land. At best if Sefton survives IOMG gets rent on the land for 5 years AND sells it back at the then market price (hoping that doesn't go down in value).

 

sultan - if you're going to take cheap shots at least use phrases you understand. One 'toes' the line. And I don't give a flying fuck if anyone is upset by something I say or write - since that is never my intention. Except when responding to idiots who mistake me for a yes man for any group.

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sultan - if you're going to take cheap shots at least use phrases you understand. One 'toes' the line. And I don't give a flying fuck if anyone is upset by something I say or write - since that is never my intention. Except when responding to idiots who mistake me for a yes man for any group.

 

It wasn't a cheap shot, and thanks for pointing out my bad spelling. Pointing out spelling errors is what everyone resorts to on here when they don't have a coherent response. As I said keep toeing the line to keep the cups flowing.

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The CM to Tynwald:

 

"Is it any wonder, Mr Speaker, that the public have no confidence in the Government of the Isle of Man or the House of Keys? This constant denigration and assertion of corruption, of cronyism, that we are only helping our friends, is utterly disgusting. It is insulting every single person sitting in this Chamber, and I hope people recognise the damage with the language that the Member for Onchan uses constantly, with no truth whatsoever."

 

Errrr it may be me Mr Bell but aren't you denigrating the very same 'Member for Onchan' who fought long and hard for an enquiry into the Mount Murray farrago that eventually concluded that you had "knowingly misled Tynwald" on that very issue?

 

To use your own words "Is it any wonder that the public have no confidence in the Government of the Isle of Man or the House of Keys?"

 

Well, no actually.....

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And will you still feel the same if it turns out - as seems likely - that the Sleepwell Group have previously expressed an interest in the Sefton? They have, after all, injected a fair amount of cash into local development. Will you be asking a representative from there to appear on Talking Heads to put their point of view and to find out if they are likely to reduce future investment because of these developments?

 

I know you've interviewed many members of the government, Stu - but I've had to negotiate with and confront many of them in the past: and while you may be impressed by their sincerity and political acumen in a public presentation I, and others, never had much difficulty in exposing their egos, their arrogance and their lack of ability across a negotiating table.

There are some who are sincere, there are many who are arrogant - and there are far too many who lack the ability required of them. I hope you're right about them having knowledge that isn't available to the great unwashed and that everything will work out - but I can't help having strong doubts.

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And to my mind the facts as presented DO make a compelling case for the support.

 

The counter arguments are all based on 'what if'.

The arguments for are also based on what if. The main one being suggested by Bell and Teare that if the Govt had not supported then 300 jobs would have immediatly been lost.

 

If you believe that then the support may stack up but I would still contend saying that in return for the support they had no power over the make up of the board indicates a complete lack of knowledge and experience of such matters.

 

The vast majority of business people I have spoken to do not believe that scenario. They are too profitable as hotels for that and as Teare I think said the Casino is a cash cow!

 

There is only one reason that this deal has been done in my opinion and it is not funny handshakes rather the threat that the Sefton might close the hotels over TT fortnight. I expect that if this had happened in Oct the support would not have been there just as it appears not to have been there until now even though apparently the govt has been aware of matters for a whilst.

 

The Govt would appear to have put itself in a very weak position as those Companies that are vital to the TT will feel they can similarly go to the Government and negotiate using similar tactics. If I was the SP and wanted to change the terms of the User Agreement, or get funding for a new boat etc I would simply sit back until the TT was getting close and say to Govt agree or we will not be able to run the required TT schedule.Easy to do without breaking the User Agreement as I m not sure it details a level of service over the TT just over various seasons.

 

The strong decision in my view would have been to let the companies go into liquidation but support the running whilst a buyer was found. Stumping up cash was the easy option

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