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But according to the MEF the project has to be in the Castle Mona, they have rejected any other proposal. So my guess is that Sefton group will probably be by far the largest creditor, except perhaps the government itself for NI/ITIP & VAT.

 

Which isn't the fault of the Sefton is it?

But the Sefton are hardly going to refuse renting out their property if they know they're guaranteed to get their money via the taxpayer if MEF default......

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Or: Tynwald is clearly being abused by some members who are effectively using it as a retirement fund.

In the Report ‘Government Support for the Sefton Group’ there are a number of what might be called core or central propositions which if successfully challenged render the supporting explanations stan

It is self interest, short-sightedness, poor planning, and thinking we still live in the 1950's, that has made Douglas the ever-worsening shit hole it is. People need to stand up against such iss

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Exactly. The Sefton Group would be a beneficiary of the guarantee.

 

And all the other creditors too...

 

 

Possibly, but highly unlikely: normally guarantees are in favour of a single creditor or potential creditor, not every creditor

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Possibly, but highly unlikely: normally guarantees are in favour of a single creditor or potential creditor, not every creditor

 

Sure, I think it is an underwriting of the lease from memory. I still think it's a bit unfair to say that this is another way the seftons milking the government. There's enough justification for complaining without throwing in a conditional deal that's only been approved in principle to another organisation.

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Possibly, but highly unlikely: normally guarantees are in favour of a single creditor or potential creditor, not every creditor

 

Sure, I think it is an underwriting of the lease from memory. I still think it's a bit unfair to say that this is another way the seftons milking the government. There's enough justification for complaining without throwing in a conditional deal that's only been approved in principle to another organisation.

Once you get a government guarantee, the money's effectively in the bank. Whether this MEF idea goes tits up in year 1, 2 or 3...as I understand it, the guarantee is for 5 years rent.

 

And they're not milking the government...they're milking the taxpayer.

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Once you get a government guarantee, the money's effectively in the bank. Whether this MEF idea goes tits up in year 1, 2 or 3...as I understand it, the guarantee is for 5 years rent.

 

And they're not milking the government...they're milking the taxpayer.

 

Yes, I understand that, I see that the sefton could benefit, I just don't see how they are to blame. It's up to the MEF to get their guarantees, if they've chosen to go to the government, that's their choice, not the seftons.

 

Bored of this now, there's enough bogieman in the 4 million loan and purchase isn't there without roping the MEF thing in?

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Public’s views sought on govt’s bailout of Sefton

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/public-s-views-sought-on-govt-s-bailout-of-sefton-1-5640593

 

THE public’s views will be sought during an investigation into the government’s bailout of the Sefton Group.

 

The Economic Committee, a Standing Committee of Tynwald, will enquire into the government support for the Sefton Group.

 

It has written to the government asking for initial written evidence and will seek further written and oral evidence from others in the near future.

Ramsey MHK Leonard Singer, who is the chairman of the committee, said: ‘The Chief Minister wrote to the committee asking it to inquire into this matter in the light of the significant public interest in the decision by the government to support the Sefton Group.

 

‘We have written to the government asking for them to explain the decision and, in the light of their evidence, we will be making further enquiries and collecting written and oral evidence. We will welcome evidence from the public in due course.’

 

 

So, is this going to be of any use? Or is that the whitewash brigade getting started?

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Once you get a government guarantee, the money's effectively in the bank. Whether this MEF idea goes tits up in year 1, 2 or 3...as I understand it, the guarantee is for 5 years rent.

 

And they're not milking the government...they're milking the taxpayer.

 

Yes, I understand that, I see that the sefton could benefit, I just don't see how they are to blame. It's up to the MEF to get their guarantees, if they've chosen to go to the government, that's their choice, not the seftons.

 

Bored of this now, there's enough bogieman in the 4 million loan and purchase isn't there without roping the MEF thing in?

No one is 'blaming' anyone. But the facts are the facts...that taxpayers' money has been given and a further amount guaranteed (if MEF goes ahead).

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Public’s views sought on govt’s bailout of Sefton

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/public-s-views-sought-on-govt-s-bailout-of-sefton-1-5640593

 

THE public’s views will be sought during an investigation into the government’s bailout of the Sefton Group.

 

The Economic Committee, a Standing Committee of Tynwald, will enquire into the government support for the Sefton Group.

 

It has written to the government asking for initial written evidence and will seek further written and oral evidence from others in the near future.

Ramsey MHK Leonard Singer, who is the chairman of the committee, said: ‘The Chief Minister wrote to the committee asking it to inquire into this matter in the light of the significant public interest in the decision by the government to support the Sefton Group.

 

‘We have written to the government asking for them to explain the decision and, in the light of their evidence, we will be making further enquiries and collecting written and oral evidence. We will welcome evidence from the public in due course.’

 

 

So, is this going to be of any use? Or is that the whitewash brigade getting started?

Depends on what they find out I imagine :)

 

My view is that this could cost someone their political career, but only time will tell. Don't forget, there's already been a previous 'secret loan' apparently.

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But according to the MEF the project has to be in the Castle Mona, they have rejected any other proposal. So my guess is that Sefton group will probably be by far the largest creditor, except perhaps the government itself for NI/ITIP & VAT.

 

 

Erm.... just passing through but the MEF wanted to take over the IBS and create the ICT there, relieving the Gov't of the financial burden of the loss-making IBS and Nunnery. Gov't said no. At the moment the Castle Mona is the next most viable available proposal for their vision, what they have rejected is less viable proposals.

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Ubbiali, I am going off line now so cant reply tonight but just one point you raise about who the directors of Captima are and your statement that this would be on public record.

 

I dont know but I would have thought they would be available too, at the company registry, no secret, so why waste precious Keys time asking a question that could be found out by the MHK themselves by sending someone up there to do a search?

 

As I said, questions for the sake of appearing to be doing something..........................

re Captima - see post 876 wink.png

 

See also the excellent post from Roger Mexico #903 which explains the strategy needed to tease the answers out of Ministers.

 

This whole affair has been a PR disaster (it was always going to be a political hot potato) if those issuing the original press release had pre empted at least some of the questions that it should have been patently obvious were likely to asked given the paucity of information provided. What would G8 make of the handling of the matter!!!

 

We now have Sir Miles Walker reported as saying that the funds were not required to prevent a collapse, the Middlemarch site will provide that (working capital) it`s being sold to Government for £3.2m with an option for Sefton to lease (my italics).

 

So is this a sale and lease back (as originally reported) or not or is the Government just going to leave it vacant (or turn it into free car parks)? In which case it begins to look like a large interest free loan, albeit secured. Do the terms of this Middlemarch agreement provide for interest or, if it really is a sale and lease back, what rental will be paid to the Government under the terms of the lease.

 

Do the Sefton have the right to re-purchase the Middlemarch site for £3.2m at the end of the term or, as clearly stated by Eddie Teare at the roamin Comin meeting at the Museum, does the Government have a put option enabling it to require the Sefton to purchase the property at £3.2m. These two things are very different. With the former at the expiry date of the agreement, the Sefton can, if it so wishes, just walk away if the value of the land plummets in the interim, leaving the Government with a piece of land for which it has paid £3.2m which sum might be way above its then value. If the value of the land rockets, the Sefton will no doubt be able to raise the funds and exercise its right to buy meaning the Government will have to sell a piece of land for £3.2m which might then be worth much more. The question is did the sale and lease back agreement state that the buy back price was £3.2m (which is reported) or did it say, as it most definitely should have, that the repurchase price should be £3.2m or market value whichever is the higher. With regard to the put option scenario the Govt can require the Sefton to purchase the property at £3.2m but the same provisos will obtain with the exception that the Sefton could not legally walk away from any put option.

 

The above aspect is just a small part of the whole transaction but, in my opinion, it raises a lot of pertinent and valid questions upon which some ordinary members of the public and their elected representatives, quite rightly, would like clarification.

 

There ar many, many more areas requiring clarification, some thornier topics than others and, in the absence of a clear and unambiguous Q&A type of document from the Government, our MHKs will no doubt continue to have to try to tease the answers from the Ministers concerned.

Another clarification that needs to be addressed is: how much of the money handed over (in this last tranche) is to pay for statutory liabilities, ITIP/NIC & VAT?

 

An answer on that issue will determine what the approximate and real liquidity situation is. The maxim is that if you cannot discharge what is legally owed to government then there really are serious problems.

Small creditors/ suppliers have still not been paid by the Sefton and as for Parkinsons cant see them paying any depts, they will just close that company down, it now has no assets or contracts ongoing. As was said on Manx Radio yesterday lunchtime its last asset , the land at Braddan has been sold to a shareholder.

Edited by JQ7
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Public’s views sought on govt’s bailout of Sefton

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/public-s-views-sought-on-govt-s-bailout-of-sefton-1-5640593

 

THE public’s views will be sought during an investigation into the government’s bailout of the Sefton Group.

 

The Economic Committee, a Standing Committee of Tynwald, will enquire into the government support for the Sefton Group.

 

It has written to the government asking for initial written evidence and will seek further written and oral evidence from others in the near future.

Ramsey MHK Leonard Singer, who is the chairman of the committee, said: ‘The Chief Minister wrote to the committee asking it to inquire into this matter in the light of the significant public interest in the decision by the government to support the Sefton Group.

 

‘We have written to the government asking for them to explain the decision and, in the light of their evidence, we will be making further enquiries and collecting written and oral evidence. We will welcome evidence from the public in due course.’

 

So, is this going to be of any use? Or is that the whitewash brigade getting started?

 

I should imagine that in due course the Economic Committee will report back that Mr Bell and Mr Teare did in fact have "the authority" to bail out the Sefton Group in the way that they did i.e. without putting it before Tynwald first.

 

Now there's no law against arrogance...

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Public’s views sought on govt’s bailout of Sefton

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/public-s-views-sought-on-govt-s-bailout-of-sefton-1-5640593

 

THE public’s views will be sought during an investigation into the government’s bailout of the Sefton Group.

 

The Economic Committee, a Standing Committee of Tynwald, will enquire into the government support for the Sefton Group.

 

It has written to the government asking for initial written evidence and will seek further written and oral evidence from others in the near future.

Ramsey MHK Leonard Singer, who is the chairman of the committee, said: ‘The Chief Minister wrote to the committee asking it to inquire into this matter in the light of the significant public interest in the decision by the government to support the Sefton Group.

 

‘We have written to the government asking for them to explain the decision and, in the light of their evidence, we will be making further enquiries and collecting written and oral evidence. We will welcome evidence from the public in due course.’

 

So, is this going to be of any use? Or is that the whitewash brigade getting started?

 

I should imagine that in due course the Economic Committee will report back that Mr Bell and Mr Teare did in fact have "the authority" to bail out the Sefton Group in the way that they did i.e. without putting it before Tynwald first.

 

Now there's no law against arrogance...

 

It's all one big club on this small island. They don't shit on fellow members as they know what goes around comes around. Move along there's nothing to see.....

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Seeing the bigger picture yet anyone?

No, neither have I but one thought is that the Sefton is going to be used as a host for some type of International Tax Conference.

This would make some sense due to the number of open tax jurisdictions it has under its belt.

 

ok, it was one thought, but would it be worth pushing it?

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