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Lao

Nationalist Scribblings

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I wasted a few minutes of my life to get a picture of this daub

post-17710-003988300 1278924183_thumb.jpg

(Part of car at bottom RH to give idea of scale)

It's scrawled in chalk and is already starting to fade. A couple of showers should finish it.

 

Hardly calculated to trigger a nationlist uprising spreading death and fire across the IOM

 

This is how it used to be done properly

post-17710-070463300 1278924334_thumb.jpg

 

When they start looking like that, there may well be a problem.

 

I note there's a badly painted anarchist sign on the other side of the road, far more visible from the playgound.

I look forward to the small children embracing Anarcho-syndicalism as a result of this 'brainwashing'.

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...if those slogans were legitimate political statements, they would be done on a manifesto and posted through your door, not scrawled on the wall of schools in an act of vandalism.

What is a legitimate political statement? Why should politics be limited and confined to the apparatus of State?

 

if the isle of man was going through some sort of identity crisis, perhaps there would be some grounds for a "manx not english" campaign, but that would still have to be done in a legitimate fashion.
I think from reading your posts that the issue is really one of you having a nationalist identity that contrasts with those doing the scribblings. These people do not see themselves as being British and that's a 'legitimate' nationalist identity. You see things differently and abhor the fact that people are given this one-sided understanding.

 

Another problem is the placement of these slogans, all three that i have seen are on the walls of schools. this is no accident, it is an attempt to sway the easily influenced.
The easily influenced are already being swayed. Children (and adults) are already indoctrinated into a very narrow way of political thinking. They are brought up to endorse many politicals issues without being given the opportunity to analysis and assess things. It's seem no big deal that some other group is telling the kids how to think.

 

If a set of political ideals has any merit, people should come to be convinced of this through discourse and debate, not by being tricked by weak logical fallacies.

The issue is really that you don't like the slogan and the method. But it is one that works. Given its location, people see it and people think about it.

 

And there is nothing wrong with being anti-British, not in the sense of being xenophobic against those from outside the Island, but rather in rejecting the British identity and criticising those who embrace it.

Edited by La_Dolce_Vita

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I note there's a badly painted anarchist sign on the other side of the road, far more visible from the playgound.

I look forward to the small children embracing Anarcho-syndicalism as a result of this 'brainwashing'.

Bit anarchronistic and not really a fair comparison. Most people on the Island wouldn't have a clue what the symbol means, I'd presume.

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Don't forget that as part of our separate national identity 16 year olds have the vote!

 

I do not support graffiti or criminal damage, but the ideal or aspiration behind and conveyed by the slogans.

 

OK dismiss me as an idiot, it doesn't change or win the argument. If you can't see the argument, and have a better counter argument than "idiot" then you are being politically shortsighted.

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In Scotland and Ireland Tesco's and other big stores did not fly the English flag at world cup and bedeck their stores with the St Georges flag (Englands flag, not the British flag, the flag of a Greek man) nor did they exclusively sell England merchandise, they stocked kit for many countries and probably got te beter deal interms of period of sales. England Mars bars were not on sale. We in the IOMK had to suffer the full idignity of all those things and the countless cars flying England flags and houses draped in England flags, Is it any surpriase we have a backlash at present

 

Just to note the difference, the Isle of Man does not have a proper national football team, the Manx FA is linked inextricably to the English FA, any young manxman (or woman presumably) who was good enough to play at international level would play for England (barring the usual distant relatives coming from Brazil etc.). Scotland, Ireland and Wales all have their own FA and own national team. My understanding is that our national team play at the county level of football in England. (Anybody who knows more feel free to correct me, it's just an understanding I've gleaned from talking to various people involved)

 

My biggest worry about this kind of graffiti is that it seems to be solely coming from teens, with the vote at 16 have we politicised our youth to early? There is a growing anti-british sentiment amongst a lot of manx youths, who will no doubt aim to attend British universities, shop in British chain-stores, listen to British bands, watch British TV, etc etc. It's difficult to be so nationalist when the majority of the culture you consume is of the nationality you are raging against, they'll grow out of their nationalist tendencies. And if not, well they can always become an MHK ;)

 

Or it could be some pointless graffiti, of the kind where very little thought has gone into it's meaning.

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Just to note the difference, the Isle of Man does not have a proper national football team, the Manx FA is linked inextricably to the English FA, any young manxman (or woman presumably) who was good enough to play at international level would play for England (barring the usual distant relatives coming from Brazil etc.). Scotland, Ireland and Wales all have their own FA and own national team. My understanding is that our national team play at the county level of football in England. (Anybody who knows more feel free to correct me, it's just an understanding I've gleaned from talking to various people involved)

 

I don't see why the Manx FA being associated with the English FA would determine who a Manx person played football for at a national level. Welsh clubs compete in the English FA competitions, but that doesn't mean Welsh people play for England.

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Yes we play at level 7, ie County level. The Faroes are internationally recognised and play however as are and do Andorra. Its a matter of will not inextricability.

 

Why does the UK not have a UK national team, when at present it is not a federated state, even federal stase do not have state teams playing internationally (germany, Brazil, US etc etc)

 

Of course if IOM were to play at international levels it could mean defeat after defeat.

 

Anyway Berwick, (England) plays in the Scottish League system, Derry (UK NI ) in tne Republic league system and Swansea and |cardiff in the English league system. There is no inextricability about it, just historic accident

 

NB FC Andorra plays in the Spanish League, and whilst FC Andorra is not the Andorran national team (there is an Andorran league with part timer clubs and Andorran nationals play in other Spanish league teams)the majority of its players do constitute the national taem.

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My biggest worry about this kind of graffiti is that it seems to be solely coming from teens, with the vote at 16 have we politicised our youth to early?

Too early? We are talking about a society that bordering on impoverished when it comes to political awareness and involvement.

 

There is a growing anti-british sentiment amongst a lot of manx youths, who will no doubt aim to attend British universities, shop in British chain-stores, listen to British bands, watch British TV, etc etc. It's difficult to be so nationalist when the majority of the culture you consume is of the nationality you are raging against, they'll grow out of their nationalist tendencies. And if not, well they can always become an MHK ;)
I think from reading your and Lao's comments there is possibly some confusion between being anti-British in a xenophobic sense and rejecting a particular national identity.

 

It is conceivable and understandable that someone can be anti-British but also English.

Edited by La_Dolce_Vita

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I very much agree that this is a false dichotomy as Lao has pointed out.

 

I personally like the idea of Britain and British - these Westerly Islands of Europe encompass various ethnic and nationalist groups - all of which have been subjected to the acid Nationalism brings, but on the face of it that diversity has been strongly maintained with traditions as rich as Adam Smith, David Hume, James Joyce, Dylan Thomas, Robert Burns, Shakespeare etc etc etc.

 

Obviously when you have very different cultural, religious and political traditions there will be conflicts, but genocide hasn't politically triumphed and British can proudly include multiple diverse groups from Cornishmen to Yorkshiremen to Welsh, Irish, Scots and Manx - and nowadays groups such as British Born Chinese, Afro-Caribeans etc.

 

I feel British is a word which encompasses diversity and tolerance - a Scotsman is British, and Ulsterman too, and yes quite definitely Manxmen as well.

 

Far too much emphaisis is put on the English - it was very much the British culture which has so influenced the world, whether from its writings, or from its maritime tradition. Of course the English are a part of that, but you cannot ignore the Scottish enlightenment or the longevity of Celtic thought and travel.

 

Little Islanders who ignore that they are a part of a community are simply being unneighbourly, and showing up the vacuity of there ideas. We aren't English and if that is what the graffiti had said I'd agree with it, but quite definitely the Manx are a British cultural group and one which has probably had influence beyond its numbers I'm proud to be a part of that.

 

The British have muddled through their political settlements - and have allowed them to evolve over time. Even if we did become soverign - something I see as giving us very little [honest question to the likes of John Wright and Pat Ayers, what can independence give us that cannot be negotiated via Crown Dependency - and at what price] we'd still be very much British.

 

I'm distant from these sentiments, but for those who are closer can you answer where is this anger coming from - unemployment is far below UK levels, as is inequality. Provision of services and incomes are higher. If the nationalists think times are tough and are seeking to blame our colonial masters they've got a very distored view.

 

We could be far far worse off unemployment wise etc, and basically we've been making hay at the UK's expense these last 20 years - seeing that fade away is hardly the colonial yoke.

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I do not support graffiti or criminal damage, but the ideal or aspiration behind and conveyed by the slogans.

 

 

I think if you had added this caveat i might have been a lot less shocked by what i took to be your support of the vandalism.

 

If you had felt that the message was enough to justify the vandalism, i would stand by my opinion of you as an idiot, however in light of your statement i apologise.

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"The real question, and it is a burning one, is who are the Manx and where do we go from here." JW.

Paging Phil Gawne MHK.

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I feel British is a word which encompasses diversity and tolerance - a Scotsman is British, and Ulsterman too, and yes quite definitely Manxmen as well.

 

I'm no fan of shrill, blind nationalism being borne of some ill-defined antipathy towards the English, but your assertion is just as flawed as the anti-British perspective (and is more or less the other face of the same coin). 'British' hardly encompassed "diversity and tolerance" in 1970's Northern Ireland - there it represented a gerrymandered state and something approaching apartheid, so too earlier with Ireland in general. From the 50's onwards it would have been interesting to see closely Britain lived up to these ideals from the perspective of those who came to Britain from the West Indies or Indian Subcontinent.

 

"Britain" and "British" means little more than its political definition. The idea of Britain embodying such as ideals, and thus being a notion worthy of exhaltation and protection is as much a romantic nonsense and a sacred cow in need of a bolt as the kind of cloying Celtic nationalism in which groups like Mannin Seyr indulge.

 

but for those who are closer can you answer where is this anger coming from - unemployment is far below UK levels, as is inequality. Provision of services and incomes are higher.

 

Perhaps it wouldn't be quite so confusing if you changed your initial assumptions: i.e. that nationalism represents anger and that material considerations are the primary motivation and/or concern for a populace. Historically, serious nationalist sentiments are often borne not so much out of material inequality but a sense of helplessness and a lack of control over one's destiny, and are often heightened by a feeling of political inequality. Similarly, a people often react negatively when they perceive their own identity being subsumed within that of another culture, and these are all factors that need to be taken into account if you hope to understand nationalists. Also, whilst it's easy to interpret their sentiments as anger, it's perhaps more accurate to view it as a kind of defiance that sometimes manifests as anger.

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I don't think that any disagreement with the false dichotomy is sensible. It cannot be presented that everyone must be either British or Manx.

 

I feel British is a word which encompasses diversity and tolerance - a Scotsman is British, and Ulsterman too, and yes quite definitely Manxmen as well.

But the British national identity is one that has always been about England and lesser nations (and previously its former colonies). It an identity that has been successful in unifying MOST of the British Isles over the past two centuries, but it has always been about the political dominance of England. The fact that the British identity owed itself so much imperialism and the centrality of London as a locus of power and representation has meant that today it is not as potent in meaning. I can therefore understand why it isn't as popular a national identity and isn't as unifying as it once was. But I'd agree that the ethnic, cultural and constitutional links are such to make the Manx a British people.

 

I'm distant from these sentiments, but for those who are closer can you answer where is this anger coming from - unemployment is far below UK levels, as is inequality. Provision of services and incomes are higher. If the nationalists think times are tough and are seeking to blame our colonial masters they've got a very distored view.

Do you think the anger is a result of economic problems? Is it not simply the result of the unfortunate rise in nationalism across the world?

I do think that there is a recent problem of people in the so-called celtic nations thinking that they need to something else to define themselves, that they need a strong national identity. On the Isle of Man, I think the fact that a few people are under the illusion that they can shape a new national identity gives them greater impetus to patch one together.

Edited by La_Dolce_Vita

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"The real question, and it is a burning one, is who are the Manx and where do we go from here. etc etc

Very subtle Pat :lol:

Edited by jimbms

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Pat & Jim - has the standard of humour in this forum fallen so far that such an obvious cheap shot as John's needs to be drawn out of the original text and then emboldened in case we missed it. It must be hell watching a comedy with you clod-hopping galutes repeating every joke.

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