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IOM_Muslim

Islam In The Isle Of Man

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Although the Enlightenment has been a great thing in the knowledge it has imparted to the world so many people remain blissfully ignorant of this knowledge.

Another atheist tactic; to question something that is common knowledge in order to lend more weight to their weakening point. To make it clearer for you, I was focusing more specifically on the 'enlightened' 'western' civilisation. I made reference to the 20,000 new Muslims in America each year. I'm pretty sure they have a decent grasp of our modern knowledge, considering they live in this modern society.

And in what way am I doing that exactly?

 

You discussed the growth of Islam in the United States and made reference to the enlightened era.

 

I'm afraid that a large proportion of the population of the western countries that do come out of the education system are ignorant of the basics of the science, history, and philosophy.

 

More importantly, societies in the West are ones where people continually come into contact with religion. People are brought to Church, Sunday School, weddings, funerals, and meet others who are religious. There is also a historical continuance of theism, i.e. a tradition of wishful thinking in a heaven and a loving God.

When people already have a mindset that allows for the existence of God as a strong possibility with poor or no evidence then I am not surprised that people jump from one religion to another when they become disillusioned. But you can't really talk of the spread of Islam and some enlightened era as if the latter would hinder the spread from an atheist perspective, because in this era there are people who clearly haven't embraced western philosophical thinking. To say again, there is a culture and tradition in thinking (or lack of it) that makes people think God could likely be real.

 

Evolution is a theory. That's why people refer to it as the theory of evolution. Although claiming it has zero evidence is a bit far. Personally I'm not decided on the question ofevolution. I believed it even while Muslim, but now it question it. I haven't done enough research to conclude it completely true or completely false.
It is a theory. I said that. But it is also said to be scientific fact given the substantial amount of evidence that supports the theory.

 

In my opinion; christianity is the world's leading cause of atheism. But I'm not surprised. I was atheist because of christianity.
You mean Christianity kept you atheist? I mean, the 'default' position for everyone is to be atheist, in the sense that I would have no religion by not coming into contact with it and not believing in the claims. Unless you were a Christian believer before you became an atheist.

 

A typical atheist excuse. We can apply what you said to atheism. Children born into atheist families are generally brought up as atheists. We could claim that is indoctrination against theism. Most of the atheists I've spoken to have said they will raise their children to be atheists because 'religion stoopid.'
You're getting boring with these 'typical excuse' comments, especially considering the rest of your replies don't constitute much of a rebuttal.

 

Children are atheists, in the sense that they are not religious. They are not necessarily brought up atheist, because by not being religious they are atheist. Although they may be too young to identify as such. But parents do not place their beliefs or indoctrinate. Admittedly, some may dislike religion so much that they prepare their children to think about what are ridiculous claims and thus help them steer clear of religion.

Is it indoctrination when a parent tells their child to steer clear of the local cult where the four-headed she-god of the skies is worshipped and where that cult make some peculiar claims about life. It isn't indoctrination.

 

It is the religious, however, who bring their child up to believe that Allah exist, that Islam is the truth, or that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, etc. There is a process of instilling ideas and claims into a child's mind through direct teaching or involvement in familial/social tradition that leads children to accept such beliefs.

 

Thanks to the catholic church. But while the christians were in the dark, Muslims were busy inventing algebra, navigation tools, delving into biology and chemistry etc. Again, if you read the history you will learn all this.

I know this. It is a well known fact that people who lived in the Caliphates developed understanding of these things. But although we can see just how much Christianity stifled thinking, it doesn't determine much about Islam in terms of its value. It may have a philosophical structure to leads followers to enquire more about aspects of their world, but it doesn't determined whether such things could not have been achieved without any theist claims.

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IOM Muslim - I don't want to be too horrible, but I have been a bit unfair on myself. My line of questioning was initially to gain an understanding of certain things and then I let myself go in debating others matters. You believe in something pretty crazy and I am not interested in discussing it further without some evidence.

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IOM Muslim - I don't want to be too horrible, but I have been a bit unfair on myself. My line of questioning was initially to gain an understanding of certain things and then I let myself go in debating others matters. You believe in something pretty crazy and I am not interested in discussing it further without some evidence.

 

Good luck on that one. I've given up. I've been chasing the same for some time. :rolleyes:

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Well I would at least like to know what the source of this evidence is. If it is anything other than the Koran and not simply what is in the Koran then I'd be quite happy to hear it.

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There is evidence for the existence of God. Plenty.

Hahahahhahahahah.

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There is evidence for the existence of God. Plenty.

Hahahahhahahahah.

 

Not one iota, anywhere, anytime, beyond her being a figment of the imagination, ever.

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This is a great thread . I've said nowt so far because, surprisingly, LDV has voiced a lot of what I was thinking. All I will say now is that when asked for proof of the existence of a god (or whatever you want to call your god) the same old shite comes out that the other various religious loonies use/have used over the years:

 

Ah, y'see you just wouldn't understand as you need to study this for x (3 in this case) years. Of course knowing full well you won't study it for three years, (they think) they've gotcha. No further debate or proof is needed. FFS who do you think you're kidding (apart from yourselves?.....)

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I've already told you I understand it just fine. Anyone else who doesn't please see link at the bottom to see just how tenuous this evidence for the existence of Muhamed is.

I wasn't providing evidence for the existence of Muhammad. I don't need to do that; he is historically confirmed.

 

The premise is, Some chap states he doesn't like people lying on their front

20th century medicine discovers sleeping on ones front is not only not good for you, it can be a factor in SIDS (sudden infant death syndrome)

 

That's all well and good. Science and religion agree on something. And you think THAT constitutes evidence beyond reasonable doubt that your prophet exists?

Again, it wasn't to prove that Muhammad existed; I was showing you one piece of evidence for the truth of Islam and I specifically said that it is only one piece of evidence among many and alone does not constitute as confirming beyond reasonable doubt. It is only one piece of evidence. I wouldn't go to a courtroom and provide only one piece of evidence and expect to win the case.

 

As I said in my last post mate, you stick to your beliefs and I'll stick to mine, but please don't patronise me and tell me I don't understand because I do. I just don't believe in your or anyone else's God.

It didn't make any sense at first because it wasn't in context. It was only after I explained it and put it into context that it made any sense. Unless you knew about it already. The evidence wasn't the fact that he said it. It was the wisdom, foresight and scientific accuracy behind it.

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Ah, y'see you just wouldn't understand as you need to study this for x (3 in this case) years. Of course knowing full well you won't study it for three years, (they think) they've gotcha. No further debate or proof is needed. FFS who do you think you're kidding (apart from yourselves?.....)

I actually said I would help anybody who is sincere enough to learn more. If it was my intention to throw you off my case I wouldn't have offered to help.

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Well I would at least like to know what the source of this evidence is. If it is anything other than the Koran and not simply what is in the Koran then I'd be quite happy to hear it.

How can you inquire whether something is true or not if you refuse to accept anything from it as evidence? That's like me saying give me evidence for evolution without showing me anything from the theory of evolution. Surely you aren't asking for evidence of Islam's truth from any source but Islam? Or is it just the Qur'an? Because there are also the Ahadith. Or is it just Islam that you don't want evidence from?

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when asked for proof of the existence of a god (or whatever you want to call your god) the same old shite comes out that the other various religious loonies use/have used over the years:

 

Ah, y'see you just wouldn't understand as you need to study this for x (3 in this case) years. Of course knowing full well you won't study it for three years,

 

If you do study religion (which would have to mean going into the history and linguistics of the texts, the vicissitudes and evolution of the ideas etc) -- then you would almost inevitably come to the position that all religion is essentially a metaphorical take on existence. IMO.

 

This is one of the reasons why there are very few born again theologists. Since theology and belief tend to be contradictory. It is certainly one of the reasons why educated theologians tend not to be on the evangelical wings of any of the Christian churches.

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