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Tt/mgp Fatalities


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incredibly the TT has better roads??????

 

Better roads = safer?

 

or

 

better roads = faster?

 

Question is how the hell can you ever make bikes travelling at an average 128mph along what is normal every roads safe?

 

To all those who are in favour of banning the TT, There is a lot more behind the scenes to think about than just a "road race".... simple things like the quality of the road surface on the TT course would get worse, the island will lose its famous "no speed limits"....

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Fourteen fatalities thus far at the North West 200 according to this.

 

Doesn't compare much against TT fatality wise, At first glance it seems Mather's Cross is/was a dangerous spot, highest (fatal) accident rate....but

 

For the 2010 North West 200 Races a chicane was built at Mather's Cross as a safety feature to slow competitors approaching the corner.
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My point is, and always has been this: they don't have to die at all. That's what's wrong. Not HOW they die, or whether they're pleased to do it, but that they should not be dying.

 

But they are going to die. We all are.

 

I'm not being fatuitous in that because of course I understood the point that you meant. However, I firmly believe in the saying 'add life to your days, not days to your life.' I don't 'want to die', I want to live a long, healthy life. But when the time comes, I want to feel like I've 'lived a life'. I've nursed people in a care of the elderly environment. I remember particularly talking with a person who was terminally ill, who was expressing their regret at having lived a "safe life"... "I listened to others rather than doing what I wanted to... I really wished I hadn't [listened to them]". How do you console someone who was weeks away from death (we both knew that) who is in tears at a life wasted? Is that better because this person lived an extra thirty, forty or fifty years?

 

Same for Joe Bloggs on his Sunday ride. He doesn't leave home EXPECTING to die, and telling his wife/parents/children that it's okay because died doing something he enjoyed isn't much of a comfort.

 

You know what? That's EXACTLY what I think whenever I ride my bike. It helps me focus my mind towards defensive riding. I'll often travel at 120mph+ when conditions are good and traffic light, but I am a defensive rider because I KNOW that there are people out there trying to kill me when I'm on my bike. If I am killed, then I hope my loved ones can take some solace that I'll have died doing something I enjoyed and that I've lived a full life.

 

...Then go and sit in the grandstand and watch the scouts on the scoreboards, a few feet away from racing motorcycles travelling at 160mph. If two of them touched and one of them spun up and hit the scouts, would you be happy being the person who signed the Health and Safety Risk Assessment? Yes, perfectly safe to stand there. Hasn't been an accident there in 100 years...

 

Yes, I'd sign that Risk Assessment off.

1. It is an extremely low likelihood of that incident occurring at that point on the course (the likelihood of an accident at that point is low and if there is one there, the probability is that the bikes and riders would continue to travel largely in a straight line due to the momentum)

2. There is no obvious control measure that can be introduced.

The risk has been addressed as far as is reasonably practicable.

 

And what if the other bike jumped over the pits (I've seen them go that high) and landed in a crowded grandstand?

I've seen them go pretty damn high too, but the grandstand is quite some distance away from the course and it is practically impossible for that to happen. A bike flipping up and going over the barrier at Quarter Bridge and landing in the crowd is more likely. Although that accident is going to be much slower, it is also more likely and therefore should be addressed first. It has now been "guarded" within the last couple of years.

 

Too many people are too happy taking the money to worry about a bit of airfence though.

 

Again, a H&S Risk Assessment would demand that identifying risk and then controlling it "as far as is reasonably practicable". Finance is part of that equation. Restricting access and prohibiting areas has made things safer. Minimum manning levels for marshals is another. I used to marshal and I have been on duty when there were dangerous levels of marshals. I recall one morning session where there were two flag marshals and two other marshals covering approximately half a mile of bends, with no line of sight through two bends. I actually stated over the radio that in the event of an incident I was putting a red flag out straight away. I was told over the radio that I couldn't do that. I replied "you watch me". This would be about 15 years ago. It couldn't happen now and shouldn't have happened then. Going back further, I was talking once to an older guy who told me of his first practice session as a marshal. He arrived at the point and met an old farmer. The (then young) bloke asked the farmer 'where are the marshals?' The farmer replied 'that'll be you lad'. He watched a few bikes through, then turned and walked off across the field, leaving the young bloke standing on his own. Things are much safer. But it is not possible to make it entirely safe, including for marshals & spectators, 'freak accidents' will happen and can happen anywhere. It is not "practicable" to place fencing or air-fences around the whole course. If you think there are specific places that should be better protected then suggest them to the powers that be, but I know the whole course has been risk assessed.

 

So I don't actually care how much you all love watching it or doing it. That doesn't make the way it's organised, promoted and run at present even remotely acceptable in the modern world.

 

And that is fair enough, you believe the best way to manage this risk is to remove the risk entirely.

 

I believe the risk is managed as far as is reasonably practicable but that this should be continually reviewed. Personally, I believe that some use of technology could be used to ensure riders who speed through yellow flags are penalised (excluded) because I think this is a huge area of risk that needs to be addressed and I think it is being regularly assessed.

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I'll often travel at 120mph+ when conditions are good and traffic light, but I am a defensive rider because I KNOW that there are people out there trying to kill me when I'm on my bike. If I am killed, then I hope my loved ones can take some solace that I'll have died doing something I enjoyed and that I've lived a full life.

I hope your loved ones can also take solace from nobody else getting killed as a result of your excessive speed.

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I'll often travel at 120mph+ when conditions are good and traffic light, but I am a defensive rider because I KNOW that there are people out there trying to kill me when I'm on my bike. If I am killed, then I hope my loved ones can take some solace that I'll have died doing something I enjoyed and that I've lived a full life.

I hope your loved ones can also take solace from nobody else getting killed as a result of your excessive speed.

 

Have you ever asked the question of why Manufactures produce bikes and cars that will reach excessive speed with ease, Bike straight out of the showroom will do 170+ , but are more easily controlled at high speeds than cars, cars driving fast across the mountain are more likely to cause an accident than bikes, so where do you draw the line.

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Have you ever asked the question of why Manufactures produce bikes and cars that will reach excessive speed with ease,

Not really, but I do question why the Isle of Man is the only place that allows those speeds to be legally attained.

 

Bike straight out of the showroom will do 170+ , but are more easily controlled at high speeds than cars, cars driving fast across the mountain are more likely to cause an accident than bikes, so where do you draw the line.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

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I'll often travel at 120mph+ when conditions are good and traffic light, but I am a defensive rider because I KNOW that there are people out there trying to kill me when I'm on my bike. If I am killed, then I hope my loved ones can take some solace that I'll have died doing something I enjoyed and that I've lived a full life.

I hope your loved ones can also take solace from nobody else getting killed as a result of your excessive speed.

 

Have you ever asked the question of why Manufactures produce bikes and cars that will reach excessive speed with ease, Bike straight out of the showroom will do 170+ , but are more easily controlled at high speeds than cars, cars driving fast across the mountain are more likely to cause an accident than bikes, so where do you draw the line.

 

Do you think it's because they want to sell em' ?

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Fourteen fatalities thus far at the North West 200 according to this.

 

Doesn't compare much against TT fatality wise, At first glance it seems Mather's Cross is/was a dangerous spot, highest (fatal) accident rate....but

 

For the 2010 North West 200 Races a chicane was built at Mather's Cross as a safety feature to slow competitors approaching the corner.

how does it work out in the miles raced department??? i'm thinking the NW200 is a lot more of a sprint?

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I'll often travel at 120mph+ when conditions are good and traffic light, but I am a defensive rider because I KNOW that there are people out there trying to kill me when I'm on my bike. If I am killed, then I hope my loved ones can take some solace that I'll have died doing something I enjoyed and that I've lived a full life.

I hope your loved ones can also take solace from nobody else getting killed as a result of your excessive speed.

 

I've also been overtaken in fog on The Mountain, where I was doing about 30mph because of a lack of visibility. I passed at least two vehicles travelling the opposite way to me on Wednesday, in fog, who didn't have their lights on. One, a silver car, was practically past me before it could be seen and was travelling towards Ramsey at a fair old speed. The nearest I've come to a crash on the Isle of Man was after the 33rd, heading towards Douglas. I noticed a wagon coming towards me with vehicles behind it, coming around the bend after Kate's. Fortunately, I observed a car had appeared to 'disappear'. I backed off and sure enough, was met be a dickhead overtaking the wagon, on the (for him) left hand bend. I 'just' managed to squeeze past him without touching the grass. Pretty sure it was a bronze coloured Sierra (Definately an old Sierra, so I'm keeping my eyes out for one of those).

 

While I'd rather not get wiped out at all, I'd rather it be my cock up than some idiot overtaking without looking or driving in fog and deciding to overtake a car coming in the opposite direction.

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Ok we'll look closer to home, how does the TT compare to the north West 200?...

 

Its pointless comparing the TT to Everest or even F1...

It doesn't! I am only guessing but i would say that there would 3 to 4 times as many bends\corners, so i don't think you can compare it..

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Have you ever asked the question of why Manufactures produce bikes and cars that will reach excessive speed with ease, Bike straight out of the showroom will do 170+ , but are more easily controlled at high speeds than cars, cars driving fast across the mountain are more likely to cause an accident than bikes, so where do you draw the line.

Interesting point.

Following certain points of view I've read, If the easiest way of cutting down road deaths is to try and reduce the event happening in the first place, then the simplest way (as by means of an explanation), is to stop having the TT which would reduce those circumstances.

Ok, that's one example and using the same principle, if a vehicles top speed (whether they be car or bike), is reduced to a maximum speed of 70mph, then dependent on the driver or conditions, it would be fair to say that it would be safer travelling at 70mph than speeds which are far in excess of 100mph.

There are very few vehicles built today that do not have the capability of 100mph which exceeds the normal parameters of the accepted motorway speed limits across and as mentioned earlier, the reason being is that speed sells. I actually agree with this, as who for instance, would want to buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini with a top speed of only 70mph?

This to me, is one of the problems that people face today and the main point of this is (based on UK roads), why create vehicles with fast speeds, if people are not allowed to use it?

It would therefore seem that the Isle of Man must be like a magnet to those who want to legally open up their machines without being prosecuted, but as we've seen in many cases previously, the dream speed scenario sometimes ends up with a twist in the tale and flesh and blood often comes second best to that of objects, whether it be ground or metal.

Reducing the speed would be one answer, but I can't see the manufacturers rushing out to change things when there's money to be made, can you?

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...Then go and sit in the grandstand and watch the scouts on the scoreboards, a few feet away from racing motorcycles travelling at 160mph. If two of them touched and one of them spun up and hit the scouts, would you be happy being the person who signed the Health and Safety Risk Assessment? Yes, perfectly safe to stand there. Hasn't been an accident there in 100 years...

 

Yes, I'd sign that Risk Assessment off.

1. It is an extremely low likelihood of that incident occurring at that point on the course (the likelihood of an accident at that point is low and if there is one there, the probability is that the bikes and riders would continue to travel largely in a straight line due to the momentum)

2. There is no obvious control measure that can be introduced.

The risk has been addressed as far as is reasonably practicable.

 

Sorry Keith but you would be mad to sign off that risk assessment, when you do one you have to look at probability of the accident occurring and if it did what could be the worst outcome.

 

In this case there would be a very very low probability of say 1, (it is very unlikely to happen but COULD)

 

On the outcome if it did you would have to score it at the highest level say 5 (death is possible outcome of a motorcycle hitting a person at speed, even quite low speed)

 

When you look at that overall, because there is a risk of death, however small, control measures HAVE to be introduced to lower the injury outcome. That is not reasonably practicable (covering the kids in padded suits/ helmets?)

 

Therefore that operation must STOP or be changed significantly, it is not safe to have kids less than 2 meters from racing motorcycles.

 

It IS a very brave man that signs off that Risk Assessment, would not like to be him in Court if god forbid something happened there one year.

 

That way of showing where the riders are should be stopped immediately and replaced with a big digital multi function screen, what cost life?

 

Keith the rest of your post is very good just don't agree with exposing children to risks like that as you say the riders know what what the risks are.

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Many years ago almost ALL racing was on circuits such as the TT course. However many drivers/riders were getting killed and the universal attitude was enough is enough. Since then (lates 60s/early 70s) all the road racing circuits have either gone or improved dramatically toan extent where fatalities are now almost nil

 

Except the Isle of Man which seems to be stuck in the dark ages ....

 

One day we (or our children) will look back on these days and think why did we let this madness happen for so long when the world moved on many decades earlier

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Many years ago almost ALL racing was on circuits such as the TT course. However many drivers/riders were getting killed and the universal attitude was enough is enough. Since then (lates 60s/early 70s) all the road racing circuits have either gone or improved dramatically toan extent where fatalities are now almost nil

 

Except the Isle of Man which seems to be stuck in the dark ages ....

 

One day we (or our children) will look back on these days and think why did we let this madness happen for so long when the world moved on many decades earlier

That is just not true. I notice you haven't named a circuit from the late 60's/early 70's or before that is comparable to the TT course. That is because there aren't any.

Also the popularity of road racing is increasing not decreasing with new events, new riders and teams and continued and increased interest from major manufacturers.

It is very easy to accuse the IOM of being stuck in the dark ages, I have heard the same argument used at our allowing of greenlaning. The simple fact is though it is not true.

 

The idea that you have to save people from themselves and ban anything that can be considered in anyway dangerous is just plain stupid & I don't believe it is common place throughtout the world atall as numerous examples on this thread have shown.

I think you are mistaking current thinking in the UK with what actually happens in the rest of the world. We all know the UK is over obsessed with health & safety rules and regulations, a fact which has even been critisised recently by their own prime minister.

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