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Tonights Sidecar Practise Red Flagged


ManxTaxPayer

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it's worth noting one thing

 

Oil does not kill, it's the walls and banks and telegraph poles and other obstacles that does that

 

I'm not convinced that was worth noting.

 

Oil seems to be the topic of this thread

 

Noted.

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The marshalls also should have seen the leakey oil and flagged the race

 

I don't know if you have ever tried to stand on the side of a race course (or public road), and been able to fully inspect the entire road surface between each bike travelling past! I think you would find it a little difficult....

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I recall David Jefferies being interviewed on the start line one TT. He said that every single rider is fully aware of the risks involved and all know that they may be seriously injured or even worse on the course. Not a single person racing off down Bray Hill has been forced to do it - they have decided to do it themselves. That was the year that David Jefferies died at Crosby after crashing.

 

And that's your idea of a justification/reccomendation, is it?

I would venture to suggest Jonny that it was David Jefferies justification of his taking part in road racing. Dave was a great rider and will be remembered with a great deal of affection by his many friends and fans. In previous posts you have made it clear of your opposition to the TT/MGP and have made spurious claims of your concerns for the families of riders(who you claim were personal friends) who were involved it road racing accidents. My sympathies and thoughts are with the families of the riders and now is not the time for anyone to prejudge the circumstances of the accident.

 

Tha's quite an unpleasant and unjustified personal attack.

 

My concerns are not and never have been spurious, and you have no way of knowing the truth of that, and therefore no call to attack them. Thanks for demeaning them so casually.

 

The stature of DJ as a rider was not an issue affecting my post. His undoubted brilliance on a big bike was not something that needed to be mentioned, because it neither supported what I said, nor countered it, and has only been introduced now to make it look as if I was sugesting otherwise. Crap logic at best, another ad hominem argument at worst.

 

And if you read my post you'll find I didn't even MENTION this sidecar accident, still less pre-judge the circumstances surounding it, so telling me not to is a bit pointless and irrelevant, and merely serves to highlight once again that when people on here are robbed of a cogent response to a point being made they simply attack the poster in hope that the dirt sticks and devalues his reasoning.

 

As I have said before, my position is this.

 

Should people who want to risk their lives be allowed to? Certainly yes.

Should the government and people of the Isle of Man provide themn with a platform to do so in order to raise money and provide a focus for a marketing campaign to raise even more money? I don't believe so, no.

 

The rest of the issues, safety etc, are all a matter of record and speak for themselves, and this horrid opening to TT2011 only serves as a distressing reminder that no part of the course is safe when something goes wrong.

 

It also - as several others have suggested - opens a door to suggestions that the greed of the organisers is so great that they let pensioners take part in events at what the BBC and Guy Martin both called the most dangerous racetrack in the world. It also tarnishes the image of the event as being at the pinnacle of road racing worldwide, because clearly the competitors do not fit into the common view of what highly-skilled athletes at the top of their performance envelope might be like. Though people who know the sport can and have countered that point of view lucidly and credibly, the bulk of public opinion will not be formed by reasoned opinions expressed on here, but by the tabloids, and if they ever decide to make a meal of something like this then there will be a PR onslaught which will be difficult, if not impossible to overcome.

 

I think there's a case for bringing back an age limit in order to head that one off at the pass, although not too soon or it will look like an admission of responsibility.

 

There might also be a case for demonstrating that the medical examinaion has moved on from the days when the medical office was at the top of the Grandstand and if you could climb the stairs to reach it you passed as fit to race.

 

Two laps of the TT course take about as long as a Moto GP race, and not on a nice smooth peiece of wide tarmac either. The physical challenge here is immense, and we owe it to competitors to make sure they are able to deal with it adequately. Sadly we may now also be called upon to demonstrate that to a wider audience.

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Energy are now reporting that another competitors sidecar outfit has been impounded by the police for investigation with oil being a possible cause, that outfit was missing from

Tonights session

 

totaly wrong to be honest,

IF it was loseing oil then im sure as hell they can look over the bike in the day and still let them carry on in the races,

these things happin and its no fault of the rider IF his bike lost oil, and he should not be stopped from entering the rest of the races just because they cant look over a bike in under 12 hours.

 

I just hope that IF it was this bike that lost oil on the road and caused the problem, That no libailty is put on the riders of this outfit, for that would be the final nail in the coffin for the TT, where riders are on mansulater chargers for something they know northing about or have no control over.

But knowing the way the world works these days, and where somebody has to take the blame, i would not put it past them,

its raceing and as sad as these things are when they happin, its part of it and it happins from time to time,

if it was loosing oil i would assume the fault developed out on the course so i don't see how they could be liable for anything! i would assume the outfit passed scrutineering?? the buck stops with scrutineering if the outfit was let out with an unfound findable fault, not the riders.

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Should people who want to risk their lives be allowed to? Certainly yes.

Should the government and people of the Isle of Man provide themn with a platform to do so in order to raise money and provide a focus for a marketing campaign to raise even more money? I don't believe so, no.

 

Spot on.

 

 

 

 

 

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It also - as several others have suggested - opens a door to suggestions that the greed of the organisers is so great that they let pensioners take part in events at what the BBC and Guy Martin both called the most dangerous racetrack in the world. It also tarnishes the image of the event as being at the pinnacle of road racing worldwide, because clearly the competitors do not fit into the common view of what highly-skilled athletes at the top of their performance envelope might be like. Though people who know the sport can and have countered that point of view lucidly and credibly, the bulk of public opinion will not be formed by reasoned opinions expressed on here, but by the tabloids, and if they ever decide to make a meal of something like this then there will be a PR onslaught which will be difficult, if not impossible to overcome.

 

I think there's a case for bringing back an age limit in order to head that one off at the pass, although not too soon or it will look like an admission of responsibility.

This would only be fair comment if it transpires that the sidecar crew's age and associated faculty function was to blame for the accident. I don't think it will and therefore this position is just ageist.

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I think there's a case for bringing back an age limit in order to head that one off at the pass, although not too soon or it will look like an admission of responsibility.

 

There might also be a case for demonstrating that the medical examinaion has moved on from the days when the medical office was at the top of the Grandstand and if you could climb the stairs to reach it you passed as fit to race.

 

Two laps of the TT course take about as long as a Moto GP race, and not on a nice smooth peiece of wide tarmac either. The physical challenge here is immense, and we owe it to competitors to make sure they are able to deal with it adequately. Sadly we may now also be called upon to demonstrate that to a wider audience.

 

http://cdn.iomtt.com/~/media/Files/2011/regulations/TT_ENTRY_2011.ashx

If you have a look at the entry form, the last page has the medical bit on. The applicant has to go and see their doctor, and get them to fill out the form. If there are any issues or concerns, then the application will be sent to the ACU Medical Panel members for consideration. The panel consists of some of the top UK Motorsport Doctors, most of whom act as Chief Medical Officers at events throughout the UK and may have already seen the applicant racing. They will all be fully aware of the stress involved in competing on the TT course. The applicant can be asked to undertake further examinations such as ECG stress tests etc. The panel will then make a decision as to if they can race or not.

 

On the TT and MGP, if you have any "incident" whatsoever, then you are placed on a "stop list". You can't be removed from this list until you are seen by one of the TT doctors - usually at the top of the Grandstand. If someone falls off at Governors Bridge and appears to have received no injuries whatsoever, then they still have to be examined to get back on their bike again. I've seen riders at the top of the Grandstand doing press ups to test for arm strenth after injuring them, or running up and down a flight of stairs for 5 minutes testing leg strength. I think you are getting this "fit to ride" medical examination confused with what an applicant has to do to actually get an entry.

Edited by andrew
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Should people who want to risk their lives be allowed to? Certainly yes.

Should the government and people of the Isle of Man provide themn with a platform to do so in order to raise money and provide a focus for a marketing campaign to raise even more money? I don't believe so, no.

 

Spot on - if you like spuds and herring

 

 

Fixed

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It also - as several others have suggested - opens a door to suggestions that the greed of the organisers is so great that they let pensioners take part in events at what the BBC and Guy Martin both called the most dangerous racetrack in the world. It also tarnishes the image of the event as being at the pinnacle of road racing worldwide, because clearly the competitors do not fit into the common view of what highly-skilled athletes at the top of their performance envelope might be like. Though people who know the sport can and have countered that point of view lucidly and credibly, the bulk of public opinion will not be formed by reasoned opinions expressed on here, but by the tabloids, and if they ever decide to make a meal of something like this then there will be a PR onslaught which will be difficult, if not impossible to overcome.

 

I think there's a case for bringing back an age limit in order to head that one off at the pass, although not too soon or it will look like an admission of responsibility.

This would only be fair comment if it transpires that the sidecar crew's age and associated faculty function was to blame for the accident. I don't think it will and therefore this position is just ageist.

 

MTP you misunderstand me.

 

That is not a 'position', just an assessment of how this situation will be reported, and regardless of the actual cause, the age of those involved could easily prove irresistible to headline writers.

 

That's why I suggest that there is a case for heading it off at the pass fo next time.

 

Indebted to Andrew for the medical explanation as well.

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I certainly agree that the Police are far better equipped to investigate the reasons for any accident on the TT course, my query was more to do with their ability to seize race machinery as there could be no criminal proceedings if nothing other than race machines were involved (unless criminal intent was involved of course).

 

A racing accident is just that, the police have to call these incidents as our americana blame culture can lead to legal claims etc but within racing eveyone accepts that accidents will always happen, be it caused by lack of course knowledge, mechanical failure or at times just plain bad luck.

 

Worst case, if a preceeding outfit dropped oil which led to this accident, it was certainly not their intent to do so, outside of the what they must be feeling right now, there should be no further action taken against.

 

If it was caused by a member of the public stepping onto the course, or a none race vehicle (involving a real 3rd party, cattle wagon for example) then I can see why it would immediately become a Police issue as criminal charges would most likely be brought.

 

As for the Marshalls, they do an incredibly tough job in sometimes terrible conditions for nothing, a whisp of oil coming from a machine can be nigh on invisible to the naked eye but cause enough loss of traction to cause a crash; furthermore they are stationed at pre-determined places on the course, and it could be that the problem area was outside of their field of vision.

 

At this time, this is all a terrible accident and I think that the riders, their families, the marshalls and emergency services need our support and compassion, and not a load of half baked assumptions, heresay and wild accusations.

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That is not a 'position', just an assessment of how this situation will be reported, and regardless of the actual cause, the age of those involved could easily prove irresistible to headline writers.

 

That's why I suggest that there is a case for heading it off at the pass fo next time.

I don't believe the organisers should set entry requirements to anticipate inaccurate reporting. They'd be much better off challenging any such reporting with the facts.

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I certainly agree that the Police are far better equipped to investigate the reasons for any accident on the TT course, my query was more to do with their ability to seize race machinery as there could be no criminal proceedings if nothing other than race machines were involved (unless criminal intent was involved of course).

 

A racing accident is just that, the police have to call these incidents as our americana blame culture can lead to legal claims etc but within racing eveyone accepts that accidents will always happen, be it caused by lack of course knowledge, mechanical failure or at times just plain bad luck.

 

Worst case, if a preceeding outfit dropped oil which led to this accident, it was certainly not their intent to do so, outside of the what they must be feeling right now, there should be no further action taken against.

 

If it was caused by a member of the public stepping onto the course, or a none race vehicle (involving a real 3rd party, cattle wagon for example) then I can see why it would immediately become a Police issue as criminal charges would most likely be brought.

 

As for the Marshalls, they do an incredibly tough job in sometimes terrible conditions for nothing, a whisp of oil coming from a machine can be nigh on invisible to the naked eye but cause enough loss of traction to cause a crash; furthermore they are stationed at pre-determined places on the course, and it could be that the problem area was outside of their field of vision.

 

At this time, this is all a terrible accident and I think that the riders, their families, the marshalls and emergency services need our support and compassion, and not a load of half baked assumptions, heresay and wild accusations.

Last para spot on Bob, says all that needs to be said at this time.

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