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Going To Court Without A Lawyer


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advocates are allowed in small claims now, the amount of costs that the represented party who wins can recover is very limited, so they will be out of pocket by at least half of what they are charged.

 

I agree some advocacy is not up to scratch, but I see worse in the adjoining Islands. We have a dozen or so really good court room advocates who in the UK would be QC material. There are another 20 to 30 of those who regularly go to court who are as good as most English juniors (ie non QC's) or senior Solicitor Advocates. There are now 300 advocates (as opposed to 25 in 1979) so choice is wider, expertise better and availability second to none.If you read the IOM Judgments on line and law reports the number of cases and the complexity of legal issues dealt with by the Manx bar and Judiciary on a daily basis is astounding. What is more many of the cases are against government or against government lawyers and the local bar frequently trounces them and upholds rights and justice for you.

 

I have no axe to grind, I only practice part time. I observe. Things here are good. Yes there are problems with legal aid and a few (very few) who do not come up to scratch. The legal aid is going to be cut, deeply, I fear. it is an essential leg (along with education, health and social care and security, read the reports from the 1940's including Beveridge) of the welfare state, we have kept it longer than England.

 

It is easy to make cracks about lawyers getting rich on legal aid. You can't at £110 an hour, with staff, rent and all the overheads. Legal Aid is there to ensure those of (very) modest means can have representation. That is forgotten. All the cases where it has helped people who would not otherwise be able to defend their rights or bring their claims, and where costs are frequently recovered.

 

The really perverse thing is that I am doing one complex case at present. I get £135 per hour due to seniority. There are 200+ lever arch bundles of papers ( ie 100,000 plus pages) to read, analyse a and master and 35 days of trial transcripts, 4,000 pags again to raed analyse and master. I have to turn away other work because it occupies 30+ hours per week and has done so since early July. I asked for an uplift to £200 due to complexity, was refused. So I applied for leave to subcontract some work to an English QC. legal Aid agreed to pay him £440 per hour

 

Government is using a member of the AG's chambers, a private advocate and an English QC and junior barrister to try and frighten me off. Total cost £1200 plus per hour. The AG's employ dozens of qualified staff, they are continually criticised for poor preparation, misleading the court and now are working to rule and will not appear at courts on Saturdays and bank holidays. The AG is buying in private services at twice to three times what a duty advocate gets on legal aid for the same courts and in one month spend nearly a years salary for a prosecutor, on cover

 

Oh they (the AG's) have employed an external "consultant" to report on the prosecutions department, and its failings. A QC they regularly employ at £400 + per hour to prosecute complex cases, who has worked with the staff and knows them. Independent? I think not.

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This is the sort of closed door funny handshake corruption that needs to stop immediately John, for fucks sake, if our legal department is this inept and greedy, then how can any other department in government stand a chance?

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Its a shame that this has only been posted today. A copy of John's post should have been available to present to candidates for the HoK with a suggestion that they tell us what they would intend to do about such a dissipative and wasteful system.

It would have been an ideal time to highlight the problem, as well as an opportunity to test the mental capacity of the candidates.

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I have no axe to grind,

 

No but possibly you have a nice silver spoon to polish and a pretty nasty legal industry on the Isle of Man to apologise for, if you don't mind me saying.

 

The Isle of Man has an insidious and corrupt (oops, there's that word 'corrupt' again) legal system, and down there with the worst in the world. Mugage type places included. A veneer of respectability that few people will dare to scratch off, least of all the self-interested lawyers and highly paid legal system employees, which can include of course the police...

 

As a slight aside, John, when are the Isle of Man Courts going to publish and display the Court Lists to the public? You said on this forum ages ago that you would find other places in the world that don't publish the day's Court business to the public, but you haven't managed to do so yet. Right now on the Internet I can find out Court Lists for tomorrow anywhere in the UK in 2 minutes. On the Isle of Man it is impossible unless you are a party or an Advocate in the gang.

 

Yes, the Courts are open and have public galleries. But it is not unknown for courts to simply *ahem* adjourn if a member of the public walks in.

Edited by %age
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I have no axe to grind,

 

Yes, the Courts are open and have public galleries. But it is not unknown for courts to simply *ahem* adjourn if a member of the public walks in.

Well i don't think there are any galleries at all in the manx courts, there all on one level.

I just don't buy this comment. There are often reporters in court. I've been involved in civil matters before, and have attended courts a number of times and been present for the case before mine - I just don't buy this

 

 

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advocates are allowed in small claims now, the amount of costs that the represented party who wins can recover is very limited, so they will be out of pocket by at least half of what they are charged.

 

I agree some advocacy is not up to scratch, but I see worse in the adjoining Islands. We have a dozen or so really good court room advocates who in the UK would be QC material. There are another 20 to 30 of those who regularly go to court who are as good as most English juniors (ie non QC's) or senior Solicitor Advocates. There are now 300 advocates (as opposed to 25 in 1979) so choice is wider, expertise better and availability second to none.If you read the IOM Judgments on line and law reports the number of cases and the complexity of legal issues dealt with by the Manx bar and Judiciary on a daily basis is astounding. What is more many of the cases are against government or against government lawyers and the local bar frequently trounces them and upholds rights and justice for you.

 

I have no axe to grind, I only practice part time. I observe. Things here are good. Yes there are problems with legal aid and a few (very few) who do not come up to scratch. The legal aid is going to be cut, deeply, I fear. it is an essential leg (along with education, health and social care and security, read the reports from the 1940's including Beveridge) of the welfare state, we have kept it longer than England.

 

It is easy to make cracks about lawyers getting rich on legal aid. You can't at £110 an hour, with staff, rent and all the overheads. Legal Aid is there to ensure those of (very) modest means can have representation. That is forgotten. All the cases where it has helped people who would not otherwise be able to defend their rights or bring their claims, and where costs are frequently recovered.

 

The really perverse thing is that I am doing one complex case at present. I get £135 per hour due to seniority. There are 200+ lever arch bundles of papers ( ie 100,000 plus pages) to read, analyse a and master and 35 days of trial transcripts, 4,000 pags again to raed analyse and master. I have to turn away other work because it occupies 30+ hours per week and has done so since early July. I asked for an uplift to £200 due to complexity, was refused. So I applied for leave to subcontract some work to an English QC. legal Aid agreed to pay him £440 per hour

 

Government is using a member of the AG's chambers, a private advocate and an English QC and junior barrister to try and frighten me off. Total cost £1200 plus per hour. The AG's employ dozens of qualified staff, they are continually criticised for poor preparation, misleading the court and now are working to rule and will not appear at courts on Saturdays and bank holidays. The AG is buying in private services at twice to three times what a duty advocate gets on legal aid for the same courts and in one month spend nearly a years salary for a prosecutor, on cover

 

Oh they (the AG's) have employed an external "consultant" to report on the prosecutions department, and its failings. A QC they regularly employ at £400 + per hour to prosecute complex cases, who has worked with the staff and knows them. Independent? I think not.

John, why is £135 or even £110 per hour necessary for legal aid? I realise it might be for general practice (probably more) but wouldn't there be enough public spirited advocates out there to do it for less, in conjunction with their normal case load?

What's the differential between a £110/hour case on legal aid & the same case on a chargeable basis? In general terms.

I'm not having a go, just interested that's all.

Oh & who's the AG?

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advocates are allowed in small claims now, the amount of costs that the represented party who wins can recover is very limited, so they will be out of pocket by at least half of what they are charged.

 

I agree some advocacy is not up to scratch, but I see worse in the adjoining Islands. We have a dozen or so really good court room advocates who in the UK would be QC material. There are another 20 to 30 of those who regularly go to court who are as good as most English juniors (ie non QC's) or senior Solicitor Advocates. There are now 300 advocates (as opposed to 25 in 1979) so choice is wider, expertise better and availability second to none.If you read the IOM Judgments on line and law reports the number of cases and the complexity of legal issues dealt with by the Manx bar and Judiciary on a daily basis is astounding. What is more many of the cases are against government or against government lawyers and the local bar frequently trounces them and upholds rights and justice for you.

 

I have no axe to grind, I only practice part time. I observe. Things here are good. Yes there are problems with legal aid and a few (very few) who do not come up to scratch. The legal aid is going to be cut, deeply, I fear. it is an essential leg (along with education, health and social care and security, read the reports from the 1940's including Beveridge) of the welfare state, we have kept it longer than England.

 

It is easy to make cracks about lawyers getting rich on legal aid. You can't at £110 an hour, with staff, rent and all the overheads. Legal Aid is there to ensure those of (very) modest means can have representation. That is forgotten. All the cases where it has helped people who would not otherwise be able to defend their rights or bring their claims, and where costs are frequently recovered.

 

The really perverse thing is that I am doing one complex case at present. I get £135 per hour due to seniority. There are 200+ lever arch bundles of papers ( ie 100,000 plus pages) to read, analyse a and master and 35 days of trial transcripts, 4,000 pags again to raed analyse and master. I have to turn away other work because it occupies 30+ hours per week and has done so since early July. I asked for an uplift to £200 due to complexity, was refused. So I applied for leave to subcontract some work to an English QC. legal Aid agreed to pay him £440 per hour

 

Government is using a member of the AG's chambers, a private advocate and an English QC and junior barrister to try and frighten me off. Total cost £1200 plus per hour. The AG's employ dozens of qualified staff, they are continually criticised for poor preparation, misleading the court and now are working to rule and will not appear at courts on Saturdays and bank holidays. The AG is buying in private services at twice to three times what a duty advocate gets on legal aid for the same courts and in one month spend nearly a years salary for a prosecutor, on cover

 

Oh they (the AG's) have employed an external "consultant" to report on the prosecutions department, and its failings. A QC they regularly employ at £400 + per hour to prosecute complex cases, who has worked with the staff and knows them. Independent? I think not.

 

 

Certainly sounds like you have no axe to grind

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Aye and its obvious you have an agenda, spit it out or shut your mouth, you have shit stirred in both threads that had G and D stuff in them, so grow a set and just say what your problem is or keep it zipped.

 

What happened to the new nightclub topic? :huh:

 

wondered that myself, maybe the moderators and their advisors thought better of their comments

 

Just when they start to get fun. Maybe Mr W spat his dummy out

Edited by pauld
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Aye and its obvious you have an agenda, spit it out or shut your mouth, you have shit stirred in both threads that had G and D stuff in them, so grow a set and just say what your problem is or keep it zipped.

 

What happened to the new nightclub topic? :huh:

 

wondered that myself, maybe the moderators and their advisors thought better of their comments

 

Just when they start to get fun. Maybe Mr W spat his dummy out

 

Nothing more amusing than in interweb gangster. Grow a set indeed. I shall run away and hide from big bad PaulD (does the D stand for dickhead then)

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Aye and its obvious you have an agenda, spit it out or shut your mouth, you have shit stirred in both threads that had G and D stuff in them, so grow a set and just say what your problem is or keep it zipped.

 

What happened to the new nightclub topic? :huh:

 

wondered that myself, maybe the moderators and their advisors thought better of their comments

 

Just when they start to get fun. Maybe Mr W spat his dummy out

 

Nothing more amusing than in interweb gangster. Grow a set indeed. I shall run away and hide from big bad PaulD (does the D stand for dickhead then)

 

He also occasions as a part Internet Spelling Police. The other half of the time, his postings resemble a chimp attacking a keyboard with its own poop.

 

Edit to add: a very, very angry chimp at that.

Edited by MilitantDogOwner
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Aye and its obvious you have an agenda, spit it out or shut your mouth, you have shit stirred in both threads that had G and D stuff in them, so grow a set and just say what your problem is or keep it zipped.

 

What happened to the new nightclub topic? :huh:

 

wondered that myself, maybe the moderators and their advisors thought better of their comments

 

Just when they start to get fun. Maybe Mr W spat his dummy out

 

Nothing more amusing than in interweb gangster. Grow a set indeed. I shall run away and hide from big bad PaulD (does the D stand for dickhead then)

 

He also occasions as a part Internet Spelling Police. The other half of the time, his postings resemble a chimp attacking a keyboard with its own poop.

 

Edit to add: a very, very angry chimp at that.

 

 

LOL so busy with the spell-checker, you missed the obvious, i fixed it below.

 

He also occasions as a part time Internet Spelling Police. The other half of the time, his postings resemble a chimp attacking a keyboard with its own poop.

Edited by pauld
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Aye and its obvious you have an agenda, spit it out or shut your mouth, you have shit stirred in both threads that had G and D stuff in them, so grow a set and just say what your problem is or keep it zipped.

 

What happened to the new nightclub topic? :huh:

 

wondered that myself, maybe the moderators and their advisors thought better of their comments

 

Just when they start to get fun. Maybe Mr W spat his dummy out

 

Nothing more amusing than in interweb gangster. Grow a set indeed. I shall run away and hide from big bad PaulD (does the D stand for dickhead then)

 

He also occasions as a part Internet Spelling Police. The other half of the time, his postings resemble a chimp attacking a keyboard with its own poop.

 

Edit to add: a very, very angry chimp at that.

 

Yet another self important clown. Your partner in crime is amending your postings for you now. What happened, did the medication wear off

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Aye and its obvious you have an agenda, spit it out or shut your mouth, you have shit stirred in both threads that had G and D stuff in them, so grow a set and just say what your problem is or keep it zipped.

 

 

Did you forget which subject you were attempting to insult me on lol

 

 

What happened to the new nightclub topic? :huh:

 

wondered that myself, maybe the moderators and their advisors thought better of their comments

 

Just when they start to get fun. Maybe Mr W spat his dummy out

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