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Are Primary School Teachers Allowed To Brainwash Our Children?


Gilly G. Ossenfeffer
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For the record Religious teaching in Manx schools is covered by the Section 12 of the Education Act 2001 which (amongst other things) states:

  • religious education shall be given to every pupil of compulsory school age in every provided school and every maintained school.
  • shall be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character
  • shall not include any catechism or formulary which is distinctive of any particular religious denomination

As for the opt out go to Section 13 which states:

  • If the parent of any pupil at any provided school or maintained school requests that he be wholly or partly excused from . . . religious education in the school . . . the pupil shall be excused from such attendance accordingly.

The law in England and Wales is very similar. In my view this is highly appropriate. Britain is a Christian country and, irrespective, of personal belief (or non belief) the faith is embedded in our way of life. It would be quite wrong to not teach children about Christianity. Why should you deny them knowledge about their heritage, history and culture?

 

You can't teach people to believe - one way or the other.There is no question of any form of religious indoctrination going on and the right to opt out is enshrined in law and has to be respected.

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I agree with cronky, our society is founded on Christian principles and beliefs. If children are not given the opportunity to discover why we are as we are, what are they to understand about human history? Kids are smarter than they are given credit for, they will ask questions and decide for themselves.

I was brought up as a Christian and attended Sunday school and church regularly, in those days nobody really questioned the teachings of the Bible. I knew in my own mind that I was being told stories which were really teaching morality and the threat of hell was used to control the population!

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France's read the bible !! And then if you don't agree don't use our celebration of the birth o our Christ to make yourself or your kids feel good !!!

interesting use of greengrocers' apostrophe - however I understood that Christ(a later sobriquet meaning anointed) created a catholic (ie universal) church and didn't belong to any one specific people

 

BTW I personally don't celebrate Christmas tho' I do enjoy much of the music esp Bach, likewise the Russian Orthodox church has some of the most joyous Easter music - however my point, which you seem to have missed, is that the calendar customs of the Christian Church have a much older foundation in pre-Christian thought - many of today's celebrations though used by the various churches would have raised an anathema in earlier days

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France's read the bible !! And then if you don't agree don't use our celebration of the birth o our Christ to make yourself or your kids feel good !!!

interesting use of greengrocers' apostrophe - however I understood that Christ(a later sobriquet meaning anointed) created a catholic (ie universal) church and didn't belong to any one specific people

 

BTW I personally don't celebrate Christmas tho' I do enjoy much of the music esp Bach, likewise the Russian Orthodox church has some of the most joyous Easter music - however my point, which you seem to have missed, is that the calendar customs of the Christian Church have a much older foundation in pre-Christian thought - many of today's celebrations though used by the various churches would have raised an anathema in earlier days

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Just to inform you I am not catholic and therefore don't condone kiddi fiddling . But any way it's useless having a conversation with Bigots ( look the meaning up in the dictionary ) you epitomise what is all that is wrong with Brittan , people that have always had everything handed to them on a silver platter and never felt hardship or never struggeled for anything . You argue from a point of privilege and have never been in the shoes of those that don't have . Go and live your materialistic and soulless life and pass it on to your offspring . Great Brittan !

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The Big Bang is the most credible theory for how the universe began. (Far more credible than the beliefs of the Bible). Or are you just a troll?

 

Pot, kettle and black.

 

But to play devils advocate for a moment, why it is more credible just for example because Hawkings can do maths than most people can never understand.

 

Humanity (or civilisation) has only been around for circa 5000 years which isnt even a heartbeat in the timeline of the universe. We might think we know and have credible ideas about things be it religion or science but I think we are still far to young a species to be certain about anything.

 

As for me, I'm with science but I wouldnt rule anything out.

Not Pot, kettle and black. I freely admit to trolling when accussed and I only troll on the most low brow off threads, such as one's about missing dogs or some new shop opening.

I never troll when it comes to my political opinions.

 

And no, it isn't more credible JUST because Hawkings can do the Maths. It is because he and others have done the maths and come to the same conclusion. They have published their theories, they have been peer reviewed, and the majority of cosmologists come to the same conclusion. And this has all been done by way of the scientific process.

 

It doesn't that we know for sure that the Big Bang has happened. But it is more credible than any other theory at present. Of course, it is more credible than the Christian God having created it. But not much is credible where he is concerned.

 

I never mentioned anything about certainties. Although how young we are as a race wouldn't necessarily indicate our inability to know things for certain.

 

I rule some things out. I rule out that a Crazy Living Pancake fashioned the universe out of a mixture of cosmic flour in a supermassive frying pan that I cannot possibly imagine. I rule that out because such a stupid idea clearly came out of my mind. I also this rule out (to the degree I think is worth considering possibilities) because there is nothing at all to indicate that anything remotely like that created the universe.

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I think it would be more to the point if you taught your little 8 year old to be more tolerant of other people's views. Just because someone has a different point of view from yourself does not automatically mean they are "nuts" spounting what amounts to "Taliban shit" or "mumbo-jumbo", nor are teachers or other people who are more tolerant to these views necessarily "clueless".

You need to qualify what you mean by toleration.

People can have their beliefs, even if they are irrational and based on nothing more than faith. But we shouldn't tolerate irrational beliefs when they are pushed onto people as if they are credible.

I wouldn't tolerate someone coming up to me and telling me that I am immoral and living my life wrong because I don't worship the Flying Bunny. Or I should be punished because I don't, for example.

 

I wouldn't tolerate and NOR SHOULD ANY RIGHT MINDED PARENTS tolerate having their kids subjected to the ancient superstitions of the people of the Middle East which rest on no good evidence, no more than parents would tolerate having pagans come in and present their views as credible.

 

Whilst I don't necessarily believe in creationism myself, I wouldn't dream of writing off people who do as some kind of lunatic fringe & I certainly wouldn't want my children isolated from the fact that many people hold many firmly held beliefs that I don't & they should be treated with the same respect as any other human being.
I don't think the people are lunatics and I doubt Gilly thinks that either. It is simply that people have barmy beliefs. And those barmy beliefs can make people seem barmy. Although in my opinion, I think they seem no so much crazy but more childish. Although I can't blame people for ending up having these ideas fixed in their head when they are given so much legitimacy in our society.
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I don't really know what to make of this thread. Firstly there is a big difference between Christianity and Creationism. To preach Genesis, and especially Eden and the Flood, as reality rather metaphor or myth requires the denial of scientific reality. To say such ideas are true requires the denial of physics, cosmology, geology, biology, genetics etc etc. To believe in Creation later than the domestication of the dog and in an historic Adam and Eve is to enter the mad house and it has no place in a state school.

 

I'm not so dogmatic to pretend we know all the answers and beyond a kernel of beliefs I find very hard to accept as moral I understand Christianity does have a wider social place which many people find very important. I definitely think children should be taught about the bible and Christianity (though comparatively and in an environment which doesn't just cherry pick the bible but exposes its darkness too).

 

I find ideas such as a growing child is a thing of wonder ergo Jesus specious in the extreme. I fully admit we are just barely beginning to understand vast areas of life and the universe, but I see no reason to fill those voids with anthropomorphic Gods and really wonder at the reasoning ability of people who see this uncertainty as evidence for their favourite deity.

 

Christianity is one facet of our society, so are Vikings, the Enlightenment and reality TV. One thing I quite definitely disagree with is the statement we are a Christian country. It has a place, but an increasingly minor one and the idea that it is responsible for our morality is absurd. It has exapted human norms which exist in in-group behaviours in all societies. It's put a partisan theological gloss onto these norms, but it has no more claim to them than Shinto, Confucianism, Hinduism or Islam.

 

I quite definitely do not want Creationists attempting to indoctrinate children without the specific approval of their parents. Undermining science and reality for a cult which is well beyond mainstream Christianity (which basically accepts science) is not acceptable in a state school. There is no way I'd want my children exposed to such proselytising without a robust counterpoint that all the evidence shows that the universe wasn't magicked into existence 5000 yrs ago by a bronze age Goat herders' God.

Edited by Chinahand
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