Extradition

[wheels 144]

http://www.dailymail...y-McKinnon.html

Mr O’Dwyer is accused of listing places where films and TV programmes could be illegally downloaded, on a website he ran from his university bedroom in Sheffield.

Surely all he's done is to do what any search engine will do?

And he has committed no offence under UK law

Edited January 14, 2012 by wheels

[Nitro 20]

][/font]Surely all he's done is to do what any search engine will do?

And he has committed no offence under UK law

 

Doesn't make any sense at all!

[john_john 0]

Well he hasn't committed any offence under US law either yet as he hasn't been subject to a US trial.

 

The whole point of extradition is to move a person to another country to another to permit a trial.

 

Let me give you another example by means of a hypothetical example.

 

A person is alleged to have under age sex in the UK with a 14 year old in the UK. The person resides in Spain. The age of consent in Spain is 13 - should Spain refused the extradition on the basis that it would be lawful if Spain? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Spain

 

Admittedly there are complications of territoriality in my example.

 

There is also the complication of where a web site exists etc and jurisidictional nexus, but by the very nature of extradition is that it can create some unfair situations.

Edited January 14, 2012 by john_john

[wheels 144]

Well he hasn't committed any offence under US law either yet as he hasn't been subject to a US trial.

The whole point of extradition is to move a person to another country to another to permit a trial.

 

I'm quite sure after a couple of waterboarding sessions most innocent people might think it prudent to admit to anything

 

As regards where a website 'exists' I would assume that the server location might be a factor?

Any expert opinions on that?

Edited January 14, 2012 by wheels

[john_john 0]

Well he hasn't committed any offence under US law either yet as he hasn't been subject to a US trial.

The whole point of extradition is to move a person to another country to another to permit a trial.

 

I'm quite sure after a couple of waterboarding sessions most innocent people might think it prudent to admit to anything

 

As regards where a website 'exists' I would assume that the server location might be a factor?

Any expert opinions on that?

I know that the location of a server isn't necesarily relevant for taxation purposes for creating a permanent establishment.

With technology such as CDN and multihoming, it can be quite difficult to establish the location of a website.

 

If the person didn't want their website to be available to US residents they should have taken steps using geoip to restrict access.

 

When you look at things like DSR the location of the wesbite isnt important.

[Nitro 20]

A person is alleged to have under age sex in the UK with a 14 year old in the UK. The person resides in Spain. The age of consent in Spain is 13 - should Spain refused the extradition on the basis that it would be lawful if Spain? http://en.wikipedia....in_Europe#Spain

 

Admittedly there are complications of territoriality in my example..

 

But the crime would have been commited in the UK, meaning they should/would be treated under UK law. In this case the crime has been commited in the U.K but is going to be treated under USA law.

[john_john 0]

But the crime may be extra territorial in the US statute, so it may not matter if the person was in the UK when they committed the offence. they could still be subject to US law.

 

We have the same possibility in UK law for certain offences.

 

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/jurisdiction/ see this link, and scroll down to "Resolving jurisdictional conflicts"

 

As an aside, if you look at schedule 2 of the Proceeds of Crime Act, you will see offences of "counterfeiting" and "intellectual property" are specified. Lobbying by big business has criminalised many IP related offences in the UK and the affect of this on preusmption of innocence and the reverse proof arguments over civil forfeiture under POCA are very significant.

 

The UK is just as draconian as the US in respect of IP matters in many respects

[Alias 12]

But the crime may be extra territorial in the US statute, so it may not matter if the person was in the UK when they committed the offence. they could still be subject to US law.

 

We have the same possibility in UK law for certain offences.

 

http://www.cps.gov.u...k/jurisdiction/ see this link, and scroll down to "Resolving jurisdictional conflicts"

So? He's a British national.

 

Ignorance of the law isn't a defence, but how can you be expected to be aware of the law in all countries the UK has extradition treaties with? It may only be the US that these crazy terms are with (I think Blunkett signed it in?), but it is a truly ridiculous situation; and there isn't even reciprocity.

 

If he's committed an offence in the UK then charge him here, and then the PoCA will be applicable and assets can be seized.

[john_john 0]

But the crime may be extra territorial in the US statute, so it may not matter if the person was in the UK when they committed the offence. they could still be subject to US law.

 

We have the same possibility in UK law for certain offences.

 

http://www.cps.gov.u...k/jurisdiction/ see this link, and scroll down to "Resolving jurisdictional conflicts"

So? He's a British national.

 

Ignorance of the law isn't a defence, but how can you be expected to be aware of the law in all countries the UK has extradition treaties with? It may only be the US that these crazy terms are with (I think Blunkett signed it in?), but it is a truly ridiculous situation; and there isn't even reciprocity.

 

If he's committed an offence in the UK then charge him here, and then the PoCA will be applicable and assets can be seized.

 

There are a number of offences that if committed elsewhere are triable in the UK (see my original link) If the Uk had an extradition treaty with a third country it could apply to that third country for a similar order to that which the US are seeking.

 

Answering your point about knowing the law - I agree - safest would be to restrict the service to those countries where you know the law. You might not agree or think its fair, but I think that's the reality.

[manxy 1,478]

If the US are so concerned about people copying their information, then can't they just restrict it like China does?

[Lxxx 5,826]

Just another example of where the US is going at the moment.....and it's not pretty.

[gazza 27]

US shut down mega uploaded today.

 

and warrents out for

In addition, the following alleged members of the Mega conspiracy were charged in the indictment:

Finn Batato, 38, a citizen and resident of Germany, who is the chief marketing officer;

Julius Bencko, 35, a citizen and resident of Slovakia, who is the graphic designer;

Sven Echternach, 39, a citizen and resident of Germany, who is the head of business development;

Mathias Ortmann, 40, a citizen of Germany and resident of both Germany and Hong Kong, who is the chief technical officer, co-founder and director;

Andrus Nomm, 32, a citizen of Estonia and resident of both Turkey and Estonia, who is a software programmer and head of the development software division;

Bram van der Kolk, aka Bramos, 29, a Dutch citizen and resident of both the Netherlands and New Zealand, who oversees programming and the underlying network structure for the Mega conspiracy websites

 

so epected them extradition treaty getting used a lot to come.

 

and looks like the old hackers are having there go

Hacktivists with the collective Anonymous are waging an attack on the website for the White House after successfully breaking the sites for the Department of Justice, Universal Music Group, RIAA and Motion Picture Association of America in protest.

Edited January 19, 2012 by gazza

[manxy 1,478]

Just another example of where the US is going at the moment.....and it's not pretty.

It's probably the most corrupt place at top level if all the facts were revealed, but that won't happen as people keep dying from suicide or having fatal accidents and such like, especially if they get too close!

 

 

Bit of fiction here and who knows, might be a best seller -

It's probably only a matter of time before the place does an iron curtain act, by increasing it's defensive stance, creates and justifies a war and then places new laws and austerity measures which somehow hides the gold, the illegal profits and the stealing from it's people.

Feel sorry for the average US Joe Public though, as they're getting stung all over the place, with various utility rates and such like.

 

On the brighter side of things, well at least their chemtrails have stopped, just like the UK.

For those who don't know what I'm on about, the UK Government (like US) had the skies sprayed with E.coli, Baccilus Globggi (mimicks anthrax), Zinc cadmium sulphide (causes lung cancer)

(See Norman Baker MP chemtrails for further info)

[Max Power 6,739]

It is instances like this which gain the USA the reputation as "The Great Satan"!

 

I found it unbelievable that this lad was offered up for extradition when no offence has been committed in his homeland, which should be protecting it's citizens from the claws of foreign corruption!

 

To say that we have an extradition arrangement which so far we have had 100% of requests granted and have refused a small number of US applications is weak. It should be the gravity of the crime and a similar law should exist here to justify extradition!

 

Once again the US rides roughshod over the rights of British citizens and does itself no favours, those FBI squareheads must be proud of themselves!

[manx-person 155]

 

I found it unbelievable that this lad was offered up for extradition when no offence has been committed in his homeland, which should be protecting it's citizens from the claws of foreign corruption!

 

 

The whole point of an extradition agreement is that it allows the requesting state to receive a person for trial for an offence committed in their country.