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University Fees


VinnieK
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I see Alf Cannan is on the radio today saying that the DEC policy on university fees is discriminatory.

 

I understand too that the Govt could be challenged under Human Rights legislation on the grounds that it is illegal to discriminate against two adult students, perhaps depriving one of them of the right to education if their parents will not pay, on the basis of their parents income. That could prove to be a very unwelcome situation for Govt and bring in to question the whole concept of means testing across all Govt departments!

 

Of course HR legislation was not around when means testing was first introduced but it seems that under this legislation there would certainly now be a case to be tested.

 

I am told also that Manx advocates are now allowed to take 'class actions' meaning a large number of like minded parents can band together at relatively little individual cost to challenge the Govt on this regardless of whether the vote goes through Tynwald next month.

 

Is anyone planning to attend the next 'Roamin' CoMin' event? It would be a good opportunity to tackle CoMin face to face on this.

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All the legislation needs to do is expressly state that the Human Rights Act is not to take precedence, and that's the end of any human rights action. The HRA means that other legislation needs to be interpreted as far as possible in a manner consistent with its principles, but it doesn't mean you can't breach those principles if the new legislation says as much.

 

The university grant system has always been dscriminatory too, I can't see how this will be any different.

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I see Alf Cannan is on the radio today saying that the DEC policy on university fees is discriminatory.

 

I understand too that the Govt could be challenged under Human Rights legislation on the grounds that it is illegal to discriminate against two adult students, perhaps depriving one of them of the right to education if their parents will not pay, on the basis of their parents income.

 

I'm not sure Alf is right here. The loans covering the universal contribution depend on the student's future income, rather than the parents.

 

As for those students unable to attend somewhere like Lancaster or Imperial who are charging over the £9,000 cap on support, that would surely be the deemed due to the university in question setting such a fee, rather than how much the government are prepared to pay.

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I see Alf Cannan is on the radio today saying that the DEC policy on university fees is discriminatory.

 

I understand too that the Govt could be challenged under Human Rights legislation on the grounds that it is illegal to discriminate against two adult students, perhaps depriving one of them of the right to education if their parents will not pay, on the basis of their parents income.

 

I'm not sure Alf is right here. The loans covering the universal contribution depend on the student's future income, rather than the parents.

 

As for those students unable to attend somewhere like Lancaster or Imperial who are charging over the £9,000 cap on support, that would surely be the deemed due to the university in question setting such a fee, rather than how much the government are prepared to pay.

I think the plan is;

£2.5k Universal Loan available to all

If you have a family income earn over £100k gross you are means tested on the remaining fee

If your family earn £120k and over you pay full whack

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I did hear it being discussed on the 'Today' programme that govt sponsored uni education and free health care are established rights under the 'unwritten' constitution

 

Nobody I suppose has the funds to test this in the UK courts

 

A 'class action' in Manx courts would be interesting

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Just a quick reply - I'm pretty sure the NHS in the UK pays the fees and does bursaries for nursing etc courses...from http://www.nhsbsa.nh...ents/3261.aspx

 

To be eligible for NHS Bursary support applicants must be able to satisfy the following requirements on the first day of the first academic year of the course (the prescribed date*). On this day all applicants must:

  • Have been ordinarily resident in the UK, Channel Islands or the Isle of Man throughout the three years preceding the prescribed date, apart from occasional or temporary absences;
  • Be ordinarily resident in any UK country on the prescribed date (medical and dental students must be ordinarily domiciled in England)
  • Have ‘settled status’ in the UK within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971. This means there must be no restrictions on your length of stay in the UK.

Anyone got any info on this? i.e. why is the IOM government paying for such courses?

 

Edit: faulty link.

 

 

Because you have to go through your local authority - which in an Isle of Man Student's case is the Isle of Man Government Department of Education, not the Department of Health. What it actually means is that you are entitled to those places if you come from the IOM (unlike some UK institutions and on Island Career's advisors state), but you still have to go to your 'local authority'. Because you are resident in the Isle of Man, despite studying in the UK it means your local authority at the time of application is the IOM Govt.

 

The end result is that Manx Nursing Students undertaking courses in the UK get worse support than both their UK compatriates (because the Dept of Education uses every little excuse to wheedle out of paying them a bursary and worse support than those student Nurses undertaking their training via the School of Nursing (which only offers ten places - many students have had several rejections by them, then gone away and been snapped up by prestigious Nurse Training universities in the UK, and gone on to perform well at university - if that option was not open to them then they would have got nowhere on the IOM!). Indeed Manx student nurses don't even get travel allowances to get to their placements! And yes, a good many of those Nurses have then come back. And now on top of the inadequate support the IOM Govt offers them (basically expecting them to do 30 hours a week working for the NHS for nothing) it now wants them to pay £2,500 every year for the pleasure!

 

So your only option if you don't get the limited opportunities on Island is either to join the forces (if that option is open to you), become a UK resident for long enough to qualify, or invest a lot of your own money in the course (the amount which you will have to invest will soon be increasing if Mr Bell has his way)...

 

To top it off plenty of Manx people who have had training on Island with all the support in the world then decide to bugger off elsewhere too - but there wouldn't be any financial redress for that.....

Edited by StuartT
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Sorry, was such a quick reply (something that I just vaguely had in mind) that I failed to scroll down and read this on the same page:

 

A person from the Islands who has moved to the UK mainland for the purpose of attending an eligible course is to be considered as ordinarily resident in the Islands and would not be eligible for a bursary.

 

So basically you would have to move permanently to the UK before starting the course, and your residency in the IOM would count towards the three years.

 

 

But furthermore you have to be able to prove that you haven't just moved to the UK for the purpose of undertaking your education - something which is not as easy as it sounds....

Edited by StuartT
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All the legislation needs to do is expressly state that the Human Rights Act is not to take precedence, and that's the end of any human rights action. The HRA means that other legislation needs to be interpreted as far as possible in a manner consistent with its principles, but it doesn't mean you can't breach those principles if the new legislation says as much.

 

The university grant system has always been dscriminatory too, I can't see how this will be any different.

 

Tugger

 

I don't agree with you. Nor does the advice I've had.

 

Since coming into force on 2 October 2000, the HRA has made rights from the ECHR (the Convention rights) enforceable in our own courts. The Act works in three key ways:

  • First, it requires all legislation to be interpreted and given effect as far as possible compatibly with the Convention rights. Where it is not possible to do so, a court may quash or disapply subordinate legislation (such as Regulations or Orders), but only Parliament can make changes to primary legislation
  • Second, it makes it unlawful for a public authority to act incompatibly with the Convention rights and allows for a case to be brought in the court or tribunal against the authority if it does so
  • Third, our courts and tribunals must take account of Convention rights in all cases that come before them

As I read it you cannot simply discriminate against an adult students 'life chances' by virtue of what their parents earn. Nor can you expressly state the HRA is not to take precedence?

 

I agree the university grant system has always been discriminatory BUT this system was conceived before the HRA developed in the way it has and that is why such systems may now be open to challenge.

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There is surely nothing worse than sponsoring a generation of students to study degrees of little relevance or worth to employers, raising their life expectations in the process, and then dashing these expectations on the rocks of economic reality?

 

But that's exactly what this Government (and the DEC senior civil servants) are doing. Its short-sighted and self-serving.

As is your view of learning! The very idea that university education is all about making people of some worth to employers is appalling.

 

Fair enough if you have people who genuinely see their university ambitions as being solely about what it looks like to a prospective employer, they need good advice whether they are making the best decision.

 

But there are those who treat higher education with a greater worth that has no regard for what the world of work thinks of it.

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There is surely nothing worse than sponsoring a generation of students to study degrees of little relevance or worth to employers, raising their life expectations in the process, and then dashing these expectations on the rocks of economic reality?

 

But that's exactly what this Government (and the DEC senior civil servants) are doing. Its short-sighted and self-serving.

As is your view of learning! The very idea that university education is all about making people of some worth to employers is appalling.

 

Fair enough if you have people who genuinely see their university ambitions as being solely about what it looks like to a prospective employer, they need good advice whether they are making the best decision.

 

But there are those who treat higher education with a greater worth that has no regard for what the world of work thinks of it.

LDV,

 

How do you know what my idea of learning is - from choosing to take a cynical view of what I post?

 

If you read my post you will see that I advocate that higher learning is not in the best interests of everyone, nor required by all employers. Requiring students to feel they should go on to higher

education, doing some non-mainstream subject, and raising their expectations in the process with very little real hope of actually enhancing their employment prospects is not right. Especially

when the Govt could be encouraging these same students to go into a vocational career or apprenticeship which is every bit as necessary for society to function.

 

However, for some professions (rightly or wrongly) a good university degree in a mainstream subject IS an essential pre-requisite just to get your foot in the door.

 

So in that sense, to some employers, it IS all about 'making people of some worth to employers' (your words, not mine).

Edited by Silver Surfer
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