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sirstabby

Creationist Visiting Later This Month

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Mackay is a fruitcake, but I find it most annoying that this particular fruitcake is being brought over to indoctrinate youngsters at Broadway Batshit-Crazy church on a fundamentalist-mentalist, anti-science, anti-rational, anti-homosexual ticket.

 

http://www.askjohnma...if-god-of-love/

 

I've seen the IOM tour itinerary and I'm curious why Douglas Corporation are allowing this dark-ages homophobe to use the corporation-owned restaurant in the park for "An evening with John Mackay" ? This isn't why I pay my rates.

Edited by The Bastard
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I can't believe how little reaction there has been to the news of this man's visit. Has no-one else visited his website, read the answers to his "Ask John Mackay" questions, learned of his bonkers (and dangerous) views?

 

The Christians who have invited him say he will be speaking only about creation. So, if I bring a radical fundamental muslim preacher to the Island to speak to various groups of people, including a youth service, about Manx cats it will be OK? Or a Taliban leader, to talk about furniture, in spite of his views about killing women who drive, or who go out without their husbands?

 

There would, quite rightly, be outrage, yet this person's visit has had very little opposition. Can anyone tell me why?

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So, if I bring a radical fundamental muslim preacher to the Island to speak to various groups of people, including a youth service, about Manx cats it will be OK?
But the situation is different here. He isn't giving talks that are funded or arranged by the government. It the religious who want this man over and the religious who will predominatly form the audience.

 

It's more like a hypothetical Muslim ex-terrorist, paedophile and genital exposer being invited by some Muslims to give a talk about such things in their Mosque, but which are open to the public. And then they invite anyone to come along.

 

Quite a different thing if the government invites such a person and organises the venue.

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Prayer is psycho-somantic. It's talking to yourself in other words. There are no tangible benefits to prayer.

 

Name one verifiable situation where someone was healed by the power of prayer. (i'll give you clue....never)

 

I'm an atheist and a nurse.

 

I've sat with more people than I can remember as they die. I've seen close family members of people who are dying and some of the people themselves gain a great deal of comfort from faith and prayer. That's a "tangible benefit" for some people.

 

I know of a few people who had alcohol and other drug addictions that found a faith. Their prayer helped them to break their addictions and to remain addiction free. It could be argued that those people were "healed" by 'the power of prayer'. Alcoholics Anonymous demands a belief in "a higher power". While not necessarily 'a god', it is undeniably interpreted by many people who have successfully followed the AA path to stopping drinking as 'a god' and that faith helped them.

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Prayer is psycho-somantic. It's talking to yourself in other words. There are no tangible benefits to prayer.

 

Name one verifiable situation where someone was healed by the power of prayer. (i'll give you clue....never)

 

I'm an atheist and a nurse.

 

I've sat with more people than I can remember as they die. I've seen close family members of people who are dying and some of the people themselves gain a great deal of comfort from faith and prayer. That's a "tangible benefit" for some people.

 

I know of a few people who had alcohol and other drug addictions that found a faith. Their prayer helped them to break their addictions and to remain addiction free. It could be argued that those people were "healed" by 'the power of prayer'. Alcoholics Anonymous demands a belief in "a higher power". While not necessarily 'a god', it is undeniably interpreted by many people who have successfully followed the AA path to stopping drinking as 'a god' and that faith helped them.

 

If God exists, he/she doesn't give a damn whether we believe in him/her or not.

 

What is important is that we love. Even the BIble says:

 

"God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him”

 

You don't have to believe in God to abide in love, and many who do believe in God fail to abide in love and are in fact hate-mongering killers. If God exists, he/she no doubt has more respect for Atheists who love, than he/she does for fundamentalist crackpot religionists who murder innocent little girls for wanting to be able to go to school, or lock scientists up for teaching that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth, or throw innocent people down a mountain in spiked barrows for being "witches".

Edited by Thomas Jefferson

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Prayer is psycho-somantic. It's talking to yourself in other words. There are no tangible benefits to prayer.

 

Name one verifiable situation where someone was healed by the power of prayer. (i'll give you clue....never)

 

I'm an atheist and a nurse.

 

I've sat with more people than I can remember as they die. I've seen close family members of people who are dying and some of the people themselves gain a great deal of comfort from faith and prayer. That's a "tangible benefit" for some people

And you're right. For the non-religious, but it has to be borne in mind that this is reliance on prayer when the shit hits the fan or when things aren't looking good for the continuance of one's own life is a form of irrational hedging of bets.

 

I think what MDO is trying to sat that it really doesn't have any measurable benefits to actually improve the health of someone.

 

I know of a few people who had alcohol and other drug addictions that found a faith. Their prayer helped them to break their addictions and to remain addiction free. It could be argued that those people were "healed" by 'the power of prayer'.

Not prayer itself. But the religion. It is a great shame that people delude themselves into believing in such things, but if it happens and results in someone not doing seriously harm to themselves then those delusions may be a better thing to have. Although that's not to say that religious is required for them to end their additions.

 

Alcoholics Anonymous demands a belief in "a higher power". While not necessarily 'a god', it is undeniably interpreted by many people who have successfully followed the AA path to stopping drinking as 'a god' and that faith helped them.
Though again, this demand is not based on the need for such beliefs to be had to stop drinking, but only that it helps a lot of people.

 

It is a stupid thing to ask of people though. You can't ask people to come to AA and to believing in a higher power. You have to have good reasons to believe in the first place. I mean, I couldn't start believing unless I had evidence.

Edited by La_Dolce_Vita

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Prayer is psycho-somantic. It's talking to yourself in other words. There are no tangible benefits to prayer.

 

Name one verifiable situation where someone was healed by the power of prayer. (i'll give you clue....never)

 

I'm an atheist and a nurse.

 

I've sat with more people than I can remember as they die. I've seen close family members of people who are dying and some of the people themselves gain a great deal of comfort from faith and prayer. That's a "tangible benefit" for some people.

 

I know of a few people who had alcohol and other drug addictions that found a faith. Their prayer helped them to break their addictions and to remain addiction free. It could be argued that those people were "healed" by 'the power of prayer'. Alcoholics Anonymous demands a belief in "a higher power". While not necessarily 'a god', it is undeniably interpreted by many people who have successfully followed the AA path to stopping drinking as 'a god' and that faith helped them.

 

 

That's because religion has through custom become the accepted and legitimate channel for people in grief or facing difficulties in their life. Because people find God in their darkest hour or when under great stress, doesn't mean that there is a God, just that religion has become the language and meaning through which we articulate and express our deepest sorrows and crises. It doesn't prove anything either way, and we could easily find comfort and understanding through something else.

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People who are in extremis are vulnerable and open to the suggestions that a greater power is available to assist them, cares about them, and holds out the prospect of a wonderful future.

Those are times when religious people prey and persuade others to pray.

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Without wanting to quote all of you, I was simply responding to the two specific points made by MDO...

 

 

There are no tangible benefits to prayer.

...where someone was healed by the power of prayer..

 

 

As I said, I'm an atheist, so I agree with the points made in the following posts, but specifically, deluded or not, there are benefits to prayer for the people who have faith. If it helps people for through the tough times, then so be it.

 

In general I think religion has done more harm to the world, than good and, obviously, I don't believe in a god or a creator, but I'm an a-theist, not an anti-theist.

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People who are in extremis are vulnerable and open to the suggestions that a greater power is available to assist them, cares about them, and holds out the prospect of a wonderful future.

 

For a moment then, I thought you were talking about the Nanny State.

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Without wanting to quote all of you, I was simply responding to the two specific points made by MDO...

 

There are no tangible benefits to prayer.

...where someone was healed by the power of prayer..

 

 

As I said, I'm an atheist, so I agree with the points made in the following posts, but specifically, deluded or not, there are benefits to prayer for the people who have faith. If it helps people for through the tough times, then so be it.

 

In general I think religion has done more harm to the world, than good and, obviously, I don't believe in a god or a creator, but I'm an a-theist, not an anti-theist.

 

 

I don't like giving myself a label at all, as you're defining yourself against a dominant orthodoxy which you don't share. To call yourself an atheist or an a-theist is only one step away from being labelled a non-believer, and two steps away from being labelled an heretic, an infidel or perhaps a witch. You're still on the religious taxonomy of belief, and surely it's better to say that you have no religion or belief, and to define it on your own terms rather than in dialectical reaction to someone else's belief system. Create your own space, your own words and meanings, and your own free thoughts.

 

There now, I'm glad I've got that off my chest....

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I don't see anything wrong with calling oneself an atheist and anti-theist. There are terms that have been used for a long time and people understand what they mean.

I don't really think that they offer any credit to the religious thinking but a demonstration of the etymology of the terms.

You could call yourself a rational thinker. But then that doesn't particularly relate to the religion.

 

I describe myself an anti-theist. I couldn't refer to my opposition to religion in a better way.

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As I keep banging on about, the reality is no one can be an atheist, as they cannot prove there is no god. Atheists such as Dawkins are just as fervant as the average religious nutcase toward their 'cause', even drawing on 'degrees/levels of atheism'.

 

Best you can be is agnostic.

 

When their time's up, as atheist as they may have portrayed themselves over the years, my bet is most people (if they have time and are not in the process of getting run over by the number 15 bus) think about 'god', even if it's a rethinking through of their 'beliefs' or 'logic' at the time.

 

The fact is the multiverse is just too complex for anyone to have a definitive view of the 'truth' yet, and we know sod all about most of it. Everyone's still guessing and those guesses are simply faith - either way.

 

But this doesn't necessarily make the religious or atheist person right or still able to hold their position. I think when we do get to understand things more fully, the answer will likely surprise everyone.

 

 

 

.

Edited by Albert Tatlock

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There's a point at which nobody can prove anything.

As I keep banging on about, the reality is no one can be an atheist, as they cannot prove there is no god.

That's really a battle between scientific and conversational definitions again. In scientific terms, are you really done proving anything?

 

At a conventional/conversational level, certainty is simply a point at which you can trust with confidence the things around you are a given way, and that you could live your whole life and make every decision within that life on the basis that whatever premise it is is true. We do this all the time instinctively. We can't not do this and survive as a species.

 

So therefore, contrary to Dawkins, I think that atheism is probably a reasonable position to be in, rather than agnosticism because, in just the same way you don't walk along the street thinking 'I can't prove that the earth is underneath my feet, that the next step I take will not result in me disappearing into the 4th dimension', you can conduct yourself fully as if you're certain the ground is there, and unless you're drunk, you'll be right.

 

By extension, most religious people cannot really adopt the contrary position to atheism. They would come to harm very very quickly. What defines most strains of religious belief is that there is nothing there to prove its existence or its effects. So to go about living your life on things that just do not show up, do not have any effect, are not 'there' by any measurement is simply the signs of mental illness.

 

Most religious people I have met may well say they're 'certain' about their beliefs, but give them any rigorous real world solution to their problems and they'll always prioritise it over a religious one. If a religious parent's child gets sick, you can bet they'll be ringing the hospital, not the church first. (At least the rare ones who would ring the church instead have a sense of integrity about their beliefs. They're batshit insane, of course.)

 

So, they're betrayed by their actions. Religion is not equally real to them, it does not solve their problems with equal, let alone greater, power. It's mostly an accessory, or where poverty exists, a false hope.

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