Jump to content

Mhk's And Civil Servants Get Pay Rise.


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 315
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Even though it is 1%, the whole point is that they should be cutting the £320M wages and salaries costs. As 'small as it is' this sends out all the wrong signals in a time when everyone else faces rea

Maybe the perfect example is DEC Minister Tim I-may-be-expendible-but-at-least-I'm-getting-a-decent-pension-from-it Crookall recently talking about how it's going to be a "tough challenge" to balance

The trouble is that there are too many people who owe their jobs to coming up with schemes to spend money on. Their number has multiplied during the empire building of the last 15 years and I am afrai

Posted Images

I think we have an MHK on our forum, in the form of interestedman, he is defending them on every corner both on this thread and on the Juan says sorry thread, you can just smell the buggars out can't you? either that or Rob Collister has affected a non de plume because he was getting too much flack with his brown nosing comments elsewhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't see what the problem is.

Staff get a rise but have the same budget which implies to me that someone would be given the heave ho. This means that the moaners get their wish with the numbers in the CS going down with a bonus of saving money on a pension for that particular job.

Win Win apart from the person who obviously wasn't needed in the first place.

 

There are two problems I can see.

 

They should make the savings FIRST before awarding a payrise that they shouldn't be giving out anyway.

 

I doubt very much if anyone is being given "the heave ho" to fund it.

 

All this piecemeal heads of dept going away to make savings is a complete and utter nonsense in that there is no joined-up thinking at all. This means no strategy, no plan, no targets.

 

This all means that they don't know what they are doing. So, business as usual then....

Just to get this straight, 'you doubt' something?

Doesn't that mean the same thing as you do not know whether it's correct or not, yet you're working on the premise that your interpretation is correct? Ok, fair play, everyone has their own opinion.

 

From what I hear on the grapevine though, they're making cut backs all the time (certainly at my place anyway). IMO, only an absolute fool would think that they should make drastic cuts to everything at the same time and as I don't see you as one, I'd gather that you'd agree that gradual cuts is the way forward.

How, where and who these cuts will affect would probably be the better question and looking at the Bus strike situation on a different thread, it looks like the Government are taking a stronger action which could suggest that they're pulling the shots now and not the other way round.

It makes interesting reading if you're watching from afar, although I'd imagine that at some stage, the corners will be pruned and the cutbacks will affect us all at some stage.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add a little bit of meat to the discussion about growth and GDP, it's worth having a look at the pink book for 2012/2013.

 

According to government estimates (page 35), which often tend to be on the optimistic side, revenue from all sources excluding VAT will be £269,553,000. The probable revenue for the previous year, again excluding VAT, is given as £263,298,000.

 

This is a rise of just £6,255,000, or 2.38% on 2011/2012, this being pretty much in line with, or a little lower than inflation. In other words, the celebrated growth in our economy looks very much like it translates as government revenue excluding VAT just about keeping up with inflation.

 

The reason such revenues don't mirror the growth in GDP has already been covered: factors like much of the money merely passing through the Island rather than filtering through its economy, zero-ten, and much of that growth being absorbed by companies' existing resources (rather than manifesting as an expansion in on Island spending or growth in the workforce) all means that much of the benefits of economic growth do not show up as commensurate growth in government revenue.

 

Factoring in things like rising unemployment, an aging population, any rises in costs that are above the rate of inflation, and so on, and the situation probably looks worse, because this puts yet more pressure on spending that has little opportunity to rise.

 

That then just leaves us with VAT. Ideally, we should hope for a rise in VAT take to either keep total government revenues in line with inflation or provide us with an increase in real terms, but this isn't very likely. The implementation of the TBMM calculation of shared revenue looks set to result in a further loss of VAT due to the UK taking into account where VAT is exempt before deciding how much we're due. If we do make a loss, then further cuts to spending and/or tax rises are pretty much inevitable (unless of course, we further plunder the reserves, but this would merely be delaying the inevitable).

 

So what does this growth and 'not being in recession' really mean for us? It would seem that, at best, we can say that things aren't getting worse quite as fast as they otherwise would be. That's not to be sniffed at, but it's little cause for optimism, and even less cause to argue that spending should be kept at the artificially high levels or that taxes should be kept at the same artificially low levels the old revenue sharing agreements used to allow.

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

We can't simply spend our way out of this thing. All that any supposed stimulus is likely to achieve is a temporary reprieve across a handful of sectors and would have to be funded by reducing spending elsewhere. However, I also don't believe that we can simply cut our way back to financial health. Certainly, there is a scope for cuts and these should be made where they result in a minimum of disruption to the economy, but any real savings are likely to be mitigated by the costs of redundancy packages and a possible increase in unemployment, and we can't simply do what other countries do and borrow until those additional costs disappear.

 

We also have to be extremely conscious of any possible drops in living standards resulting from cuts and set out precisely what we're willing to accept as a result of cuts, as well as the fact that whatever cuts we make now might be eroded in the long term by the effects of things like an aging population and rising unemployment). As unpopular as it is, I don't believe that we can get out of this without a combination of cuts and a rise in taxes. Our problem isn't soley one of lavish spending, but one of declining revenues that has been exacerbated by that spending.

 

Unless we get revenue rising, there's a good chance that we're going to find our finances under pressure for a long time to come and/or have to make yet more cuts in the future. The very fact that revenues are pretty much static despite purported high economic growth suggests that this is going to be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, by relying on economic growth alone. As such we should start to at least seriously consider the prospect of applying tax rises in tandem with cuts and cost saving measures to address this, using each to mitigate the worst effects of the other.

 

Unfortunately, the easiest and perhaps fairest way to ensure that revenue changes in line with and benefits from growth is via a company tax, which of course Bell ditched as part of his race to the bottom with the Channel Islands and isn't likely to reinstate.

Edited by VinnieK
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The report linked to by Roger Mexico on the previous page is quite interesting, and well worth a look.

124 less CS's than in 2010. Also, the age range of the CS is quite unusual with over 20% of staff over the age of 55. To make drastic cuts now, paying out large amounts of money on redundancy payments would be pretty daft when 20% of the workforce will be eligible to retire in the next few years.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to get this straight, 'you doubt' something?

Doesn't that mean the same thing as you do not know whether it's correct or not, yet you're working on the premise that your interpretation is correct? Ok, fair play, everyone has their own opinion.

 

From what I hear on the grapevine though, they're making cut backs all the time (certainly at my place anyway). IMO, only an absolute fool would think that they should make drastic cuts to everything at the same time and as I don't see you as one, I'd gather that you'd agree that gradual cuts is the way forward.

How, where and who these cuts will affect would probably be the better question and looking at the Bus strike situation on a different thread, it looks like the Government are taking a stronger action which could suggest that they're pulling the shots now and not the other way round.

It makes interesting reading if you're watching from afar, although I'd imagine that at some stage, the corners will be pruned and the cutbacks will affect us all at some stage.

 

Let's get one thing absolutely straight. Having been made redundant twice I know from bitter experience how devastating it can be.

 

I also have nothing but complete and utter contempt for the denizens of Tynpotwald apart from Dud and the Lib Vans because to me they are the only folks that you can trust not to be in it for themselves. Oh, and the Bish but then he's just obeying orders from upstairs.

 

In the halcyon days they had a burgeoning Financial Sector and buckets of free money from the UK. A simple way of spreading this largess was to let a CS/PS sector grow pretty much out of control and loads of vanity infrastructure projects to spend all that free money on to the benefit of all.

 

Those days have gone, almost certainly for good. Now it's not the fault of the CS/PS folks that the money is no longer there to support them. But the stark reality is that having lost something like 30% of their "revenue" the gov will have to "rightsize" their costs to match their "income" otherwise the place will go bust. Curbing stupid expenditure/investments will certainly help, although you have to wonder looking at the film industry. Now that might be sufficient to allow gov to live within it's means but if it can't then it will have to reduce it's costs still further and to me that means redundancies.

 

Now they can make projections on current income vs expenditure and plan accordingly. However I don't see that happening. What I see is "wait and see what happens next" budgets propped up by plundering the reserves i.e. it seems they have no strategy around likely scenarios that are liable to make themselves apparent in the future.

 

The government of the day have a duty of care to ALL of it's citizens. Right now I'm sure Tynwald could be accused of dereliction of that duty and should be condemned accordingly...

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

A member of the Civil service once told me that they had to maintain the high disposable income levels so that he & his fellow workers could spend it in the the local economy on goods & services & that was how wealth was redistributed ! (the frightening thing is he believed it) I said in feudal times the peasants worked & paid tribute to the nobles who lived a life of luxury while telling the peasants that they were acting in their best interests & history shows that if you take the piss out of a peasant for long enough he will revolt. So why don't I pay you less tribute & buy some luxury goods my self wouldn't that streamline the whole process, much more efficient ?smile.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

A member of the Civil service once told me that they had to maintain the high disposable income levels so that he & his fellow workers could spend it in the the local economy on goods & services & that was how wealth was redistributed ! (the frightening thing is he believed it) I said in feudal times the peasants worked & paid tribute to the nobles who lived a life of luxury while telling the peasants that they were acting in their best interests & history shows that if you take the piss out of a peasant for long enough he will revolt. So why don't I pay you less tribute & buy some luxury goods my self wouldn't that streamline the whole process, much more efficient ?smile.png

 

What do you expect? From the very start the civil service was set up as an institution for lifes fuckwits as the Northcote Treveleyn Report of 1853 resoundingly shows. Its worth Googling the report as there are some classic quotes concerning the reasons for creating the civil service such as:

 

"Admission into the Civil Service is indeed eagerly sought after, but it is for the unambitious, and the indolent or incapable, that it is chiefly desired.

 

Those whose abilities do not warrant an expectation that they will succeed in the open professions, where they must encounter the competition of their contemporaries, and those whom indolence of temperament or physical infirmities unfit for active exertions, are placed in the Civil Service, where they may obtain an honourable livelihood with little labour, and with no risk; where their success depends upon their simply avoiding any flagrant misconduct, and attending with moderate regularity to routine duties; and in which they are secured against the ordinary consequences of old age, or failing health, by an arrangement which provides them with the means of supporting themselves after they have become incapacitated.

 

It may be noticed in particular that the comparative lightness of the work, and the certainty of provision in case of retirement owing to bodily. incapacity, furnish strong inducements to the parents and friends of sickly youths to endeavour to obtain for them employment in the service of the Government; and the extent to which the public are consequently burdened, first with the salaries of officers who are obliged to absent themselves from their duties on account of ill health, and afterwards with their pensions when they retire on the same plea, would hardly be credited by those who have not had opportunities of observing the operation of the system."

 

Not much has changed in the last 160 years

 

www.civilservant.org.uk/northcotetrevelyan.pdf

Edited by hboy
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to get this straight, 'you doubt' something?

Doesn't that mean the same thing as you do not know whether it's correct or not, yet you're working on the premise that your interpretation is correct? Ok, fair play, everyone has their own opinion.

 

From what I hear on the grapevine though, they're making cut backs all the time (certainly at my place anyway). IMO, only an absolute fool would think that they should make drastic cuts to everything at the same time and as I don't see you as one, I'd gather that you'd agree that gradual cuts is the way forward.

How, where and who these cuts will affect would probably be the better question and looking at the Bus strike situation on a different thread, it looks like the Government are taking a stronger action which could suggest that they're pulling the shots now and not the other way round.

It makes interesting reading if you're watching from afar, although I'd imagine that at some stage, the corners will be pruned and the cutbacks will affect us all at some stage.

 

Let's get one thing absolutely straight. Having been made redundant twice I know from bitter experience how devastating it can be.

 

I also have nothing but complete and utter contempt for the denizens of Tynpotwald apart from Dud and the Lib Vans because to me they are the only folks that you can trust not to be in it for themselves. Oh, and the Bish but then he's just obeying orders from upstairs.

 

In the halcyon days they had a burgeoning Financial Sector and buckets of free money from the UK. A simple way of spreading this largess was to let a CS/PS sector grow pretty much out of control and loads of vanity infrastructure projects to spend all that free money on to the benefit of all.

 

Those days have gone, almost certainly for good. Now it's not the fault of the CS/PS folks that the money is no longer there to support them. But the stark reality is that having lost something like 30% of their "revenue" the gov will have to "rightsize" their costs to match their "income" otherwise the place will go bust. Curbing stupid expenditure/investments will certainly help, although you have to wonder looking at the film industry. Now that might be sufficient to allow gov to live within it's means but if it can't then it will have to reduce it's costs still further and to me that means redundancies.

 

Now they can make projections on current income vs expenditure and plan accordingly. However I don't see that happening. What I see is "wait and see what happens next" budgets propped up by plundering the reserves i.e. it seems they have no strategy around likely scenarios that are liable to make themselves apparent in the future.

 

The government of the day have a duty of care to ALL of it's citizens. Right now I'm sure Tynwald could be accused of dereliction of that duty and should be condemned accordingly...

Valid points PK and if there's redundancies, lets hope that they're done in the right places
Link to post
Share on other sites

Do any of you know why we had such a good VAT agreement? Well let me tell you that it was because we (the IOM), decided, when England pulled this stunt years ago we wouldn't let them get away with it! And for as fact I know that to ensure England knew their place we invited Russia to patrol our borders instead!

Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you expect? From the very start the civil service was set up as an institution for lifes fuckwits as the Northcote Treveleyn Report of 1853 resoundingly shows.

 

But the Northcote Treveleyn Report (which led to entry into the British Civil Service being by open competition) was published at a time when many of those jobs were sinecures, involving doing little or no work for large salaries; appointments were made on the basis of who you knew and whether you sounded like the "right sort of chap".

 

But nowadays entry into the Manx Civil Service is...er...er...er.

Edited by Roger Mexico
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you expect? From the very start the civil service was set up as an institution for lifes fuckwits as the Northcote Treveleyn Report of 1853 resoundingly shows.

 

But the Northcote Treveleyn Report (which led to entry into the British Civil Service being by open competition) was published at a time when many of the jobs in those jobs were sinecures, involving doing little or no work for large salaries and appointments were made on the basis of who you knew and whether you sounded like the "right sort of chap".

 

But nowadays entry into the Manx Civil Service is...er...er...er.

 

Exactly ...................

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing that I'm surprised hasn't been picked up is that many civil servants will also receive annual increments as well as the 20p per hour rise (plus any promotions of course). It's difficult to get accurate figures on this, but a reply to a Tynwald question from Kate Beecroft in April did give us some figures for the past four years for the "Corporate Leadership Group" of the top 70 or so civil servants. This varied but usually about a third of them got increments each year (I think they stop after a maximum of 5 or 6 years once you get to the top of your pay grade). The average value per recipient was in the range £3,300 - £3,700. Given that the median salary for this group is around £75,000 (according to the CSC Report 39 civil servants earn more than that) these annual increments may be worth 5% of salary or so.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...