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Police Must Share Pain Of Cutbacks - Bell


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One wonders whether, if you removed the police altogether the crime rate would actually get worse.

 

One should wonder no more.

 

If I've said it once then I'll say it again - Law and order barely exists in large areas of the "mainland" and policing has long since been cut to an extent where criminals can target victims according to police response times or, simply, lack of any response. Petty crime is frequently ignored or forgotten about.

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Why should the police expect to be exempt from the real world? I am sure that the police will protest that as the result of any cuts to their funding the Island is going to fall into an abyss of anar

I have lived in or spent some time in all the countries of the British Isles. This is the first area that I have encountered where public safety is properly and adequately taken care of by its police

I personally don't see it as dawdling as there's people criticising his workforce without knowing the facts and looking at above, DF is doing just that and not relying on fanciful or personal opinions

No sign of any cut backs today, Police at every major junction for a few push bkes. Why could not they get out TT week and do a bit of point duty when it was really needed. How much overtime has today cost in police labour costs and was todays event any benefit to the island to warrant all the police costs or could not the organisers have marshalled the event themselves.

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No sign of any cut backs today, Police at every major junction for a few push bkes. Why could not they get out TT week and do a bit of point duty when it was really needed. How much overtime has today cost in police labour costs and was todays event any benefit to the island to warrant all the police costs or could not the organisers have marshalled the event themselves.

 

 

You will be glad to know it cost nothing, the officers used were people who were on duty anyway or specials. There were a few who were in on a day off but who instead of getting extra pay will take a day off at some other time.

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Christ thommo,not sure about the economics of that.

 

To be honest the belt has been tightened.

 

Overtime is pretty much non-existent now, Overtime at TT has been greatly reduced to what it once was, the vehicles that people are talking about have been in the fleet for years, pay has been frozen for the past 2/3 years, pension contributions have been upped.

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Christ thommo,not sure about the economics of that.

 

To be honest the belt has been tightened.

 

Overtime is pretty much non-existent now, Overtime at TT has been greatly reduced to what it once was, the vehicles that people are talking about have been in the fleet for years, pay has been frozen for the past 2/3 years, pension contributions have been upped.

It is a good job that more than one is plural. It allows the term years to be used easily.

Exactly how many years has the newest Range Rover been in service? It has certainly been bought since the VAT grab, as have cars like the Focus ST's.

Pay frozen for 2/3 years? The police were the last of the emergency services to receive a pay rise,(2 years ago), a rise they got at the expense of the fire and ambulance services.

Higher pension contribution? So they have to contribute a little more to a pension that many will draw at a very early age whilst filling Douglas Corporation and Peel Commissioners jobs. Who gets the benefit of the pension?

For most of the public sector pay freezes have been a fact of life for much longer than the police and for many in the private sector a pay freeze would be as good as a raise.

 

THE BELT HASNT BEEN TIGHTENED, THE STOMACH HAS, AS USUAL, GOT BIGGER!

 

Bloated, over weight, lazy, arrogant, uneconomic, self serving. All statements that can accurately be used to describe the IOM Police.

They are meant to serve the Island, not abuse it.

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It is a good job that more than one is plural. It allows the term years to be used easily.

Exactly how many years has the newest Range Rover been in service? It has certainly been bought since the VAT grab, as have cars like the Focus ST's.

Pay frozen for 2/3 years? The police were the last of the emergency services to receive a pay rise,(2 years ago), a rise they got at the expense of the fire and ambulance services.

Higher pension contribution? So they have to contribute a little more to a pension that many will draw at a very early age whilst filling Douglas Corporation and Peel Commissioners jobs. Who gets the benefit of the pension?

For most of the public sector pay freezes have been a fact of life for much longer than the police and for many in the private sector a pay freeze would be as good as a raise.

 

THE BELT HASNT BEEN TIGHTENED, THE STOMACH HAS, AS USUAL, GOT BIGGER!

 

Bloated, over weight, lazy, arrogant, uneconomic, self serving. All statements that can accurately be used to describe the IOM Police.

They are meant to serve the Island, not abuse it.

 

You've obviously got something against the Police!

 

From checking news reports, the St's were bought in 2007 - 2 years before the VAT crisis. I believe most of the Range Rovers have also been around that long, bar one which was a replacement.

 

Pay and Pensions - this is linked into the UK, so if the UK Govt decide a rise is in order, then IOM will also. The IOM Govt and the Police Federation could decide to break the link, but I think it might cost the Govt more in aberration and negotiation costs! Remember what happened to the Fire Service when they broke the link. Many now wish they hadn't.

 

Most employees pay 6% a year towards their pension and retire at 65 (after 45 years). Police pay around 13-14% a year now and retire after 30 years. As the Chief Constable states in this year's annual report due before Tynwald next month, it's not safe to have a 60 year old officer dealing with fights outside a pub in the early hours of the morning, and there's not the desk jobs to go to:

Firstly, Hutton. In simple terms he recommended that police officers must work longer and pay more for their pensions. He also determined that the final salary scheme should be replaced by a career average one. His recommendations were accepted by the UK Home Secretary and work has begun to implement them here. Officers have now seen their pension contributions increase from 11% to as much as 14% depending on salary, with a further increase scheduled for 2014. Two-thirds of serving officers will have to work for longer to receive a pension. Whereas about a third of officers will first become eligible for a full pension after 30 years, most will now have to work for forty years before becoming eligible for one.

 

Officers have taken a very mature attitude to what might be a life changing decision for many of them. They know that they cannot influence what has happened and they know the challenges that the Island‟s government has in terms of meetings its pension obligations.

 

The change from 30 to 40 years will have a major and deleterious effect on recruitment, succession planning and culture. There will be period from about 2022 when very few officers will leave the Constabulary for a period of several years. This will not be healthy. It will also inevitably lead to an ageing workforce, in an organisation that has no scope for placing comparatively elderly officers (many approaching 60 years of age) into office roles. Quite simply, such roles do not exist. And, as safe as the Island is, patrolling the streets and working in and around licensed premises at night is not a job for people aged sixty.

 

It is important that I put down a marker: the changes to pensions, which I certainly do not oppose in terms of the basic principles of matching pension provision with affordability and life expectancy levels, will cause huge problems for the Constabulary from the early part of the next decade. To all intents and purposes the organisation will stagnate. Retirements will stop for a considerable period of time, promotions will cease and the workforce will age. Additionally, opportunities will not exist for young local people to join the Constabulary. Planning the long-term future of the organisation for this time will initially fall to me, but my successors will face challenges that neither my predecessors nor I will have faced. I do not envy them.

 

If as your name suggests, you live in Peel, there will normally be only 2 (sometimes 3 if no one is on leave/sick/covering someone else) officers on duty during the evening/night covering the whole of the Peel area (including the districts of Michael, German, Patrick and Marown). If they are dealing with an incident somewhere, or lock someone up and have to take them to Police HQ, then Peel has no Police cover whatsoever. Any jobs will require Officers from Port Erin or Ramsey or Douglas to start heading.

Likewise in Douglas, for actual officers responding to 999 calls, there might only be 3 or 4 - sometimes 6 if no-one on leave/sick.

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You do not have to be a chief inspector to detect how many police vehicles are parked outside stations 24/7. Nor does it take a crime fighting super hero to walk the streets and take note of the lack of foot patrols in operation, community policing seems to consist of checking website blogs, facebook, twitter, paid coffee mornings and visits to youth clubs.

It would be interesting to see how many hour are spent each year by legal aid lawyers sitting in the custody suite waiting on the convienence of an officer to finish either their lunch or tea break at a cost of £135/hour or part there of, (but that is not and never will be shown in any set of accounts).

 

So firstly you complain about vehicles parked outside Police Stations, and then complain about a lack of officers on foot? Maybe those officers that were driving are out on foot nearby? With not many officers on duty at one time, the force don't have the ability to tell a PC to spend the day out on foot, as the likelihood is that they will be needed to go to a job.

 

And with regards to lawyers sitting in Custody waiting for officers to finish their lunch or tea break, I think you'll find that most of the time it's the other way around. Once a lawyer arrives, they get what's called "disclosure" where the Police tell the advocate the brief circumstances and what evidence they have against the suspect. The advocate and the suspect then have a "chat/consultation" in private. I know of cases where the evidence is overwhelming against the suspect, but the suspect and advocate have spent over 2 hours in consultation before they are ready in interview. 2 hours where the 2 officers doing the interview have to be sat around waiting in Custody ready to go into interview as soon as the consultation is finished. They eventually get into interview, the suspect goes "no comment" to the whole thing, 10 minutes later they are back in their cell.

 

Safest place on the Island? Got to be McDonalds. There seems to be a police patrol there about 5 times per hour.

How many cups of coffee do you have during a day? Maybe every time they want one, they should go back to the Police Station, park their vehicle outside, go in, make a brew, sit in the station drinking it, and then go back out on patrol again or carry on with their long list of jobs to do.

Or they could stop off at a local establishment, buy a brew and drink it whilst driving around or inbetween their jobs.

I know which one I'd prefer them to do.

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It is a pity that a debate about the financing of the Police service should be clouded by hatred of the Police, the reality of the situation is far closer to that alluded to by 'Andrew' than that of 'Peelmanx'. I am sure that a mature debate would be far more fruitful than Police bashing for the sake of it in terms of cost saving, this goes for all the frontline services too.

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It would be helpful if we could click on a little symbol which would then be applied to the bottom of a particular post to denote our instant assessment of it.

 

For example, my immediate response to some of Peelmanx's recent posts would look something like this (but smaller if I could handle technology successfully):

 

CautionAxeGrinding.jpg

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Christ thommo,not sure about the economics of that.

 

To be honest the belt has been tightened.

 

Overtime is pretty much non-existent now, Overtime at TT has been greatly reduced to what it once was, the vehicles that people are talking about have been in the fleet for years, pay has been frozen for the past 2/3 years, pension contributions have been upped.

It is a good job that more than one is plural. It allows the term years to be used easily.

Exactly how many years has the newest Range Rover been in service? It has certainly been bought since the VAT grab, as have cars like the Focus ST's.

Pay frozen for 2/3 years? The police were the last of the emergency services to receive a pay rise,(2 years ago), a rise they got at the expense of the fire and ambulance services.

Higher pension contribution? So they have to contribute a little more to a pension that many will draw at a very early age whilst filling Douglas Corporation and Peel Commissioners jobs. Who gets the benefit of the pension?

For most of the public sector pay freezes have been a fact of life for much longer than the police and for many in the private sector a pay freeze would be as good as a raise.

 

THE BELT HASNT BEEN TIGHTENED, THE STOMACH HAS, AS USUAL, GOT BIGGER!

 

Bloated, over weight, lazy, arrogant, uneconomic, self serving. All statements that can accurately be used to describe the IOM Police.

They are meant to serve the Island, not abuse it.

Wow, such hatred. Axe to grind is absolutely correct.

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Fossils, that is about the right size.

 

Like the supposed fine line between genious and nutcase, there is also a balance between assertive, well considered factual argument and ridiculous rant.

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Well, some interesting stuff on this thread - and quite a lot of it in need of much deeper understanding. However, maybe that is to some extent our fault. If we just quietly go about our business rather than shout all our business from the rooftops, then the public can hardly be expected to offer informed comment. They will base their views on history, and current perception of what they see.

 

PEELMANX - lots to discuss here. For what its worth, I have never received a Chief Constable's Award at any level. There is a lot of stuff you cite which I would be quite happy to meet up on, and have further debate.

 

TUGGER - we are now at something like 91% of budget on salary. I'd be delighted to meet up and talk through better ideas for how we spend our cut. The Chief is quite clear on things - this is about as good as it gets, and when people go, the level of service is the next thing after that. We are working through some ideas, but its not just us it doesn't look great for - its the public we serve too.

 

ROGER MEXICO - no such things as grace and favour promotions these days. Its darn tough, and officers have to really graft if they want it. Passing the exams is no magic ticket. As for the rank structure, we need certain officers to be there 24/7, and others to be there for much of the time and on call if required. This is both for statutory functions, such as search and sample authorities, and also for command functions at critical incidents. They happen rarely, but you need someone in a big hat to run them when they do!

 

one final point..........Range Rovers, an ST Focuses (or is that Focii?) These were bought in 2007, when I was running the Roads Policing Unit. The Range Rovers, believe it or not, were exceptional value based on the purchasing framework that was available. They are now on their final days, and will be replaced by something much smaller, agile and fit for our times. The ST's have worked tremendously - sending out the right message to the 'boy racer' fraternity, as well as acting as a force multiplier (every car becomes a potential police car) Should they have been such high performance vehicles? Always open to debate of course, but they have performed impeccably, and in my opinion, been a major contributor to road safety. And again, purchased because of the right deal being available at the time. I utilised one for much of TT. It has over 90,000 miles on the clock, and is well overdue for replacement. It will have to hang on a good bit longer yet though!

 

So, to those above, and anyone else who has ideas, observations or anything at all to debate on policing or our budgets........ my office number is 631212, and my email is derek.flint@gov.im I shall await your call. Others have availed themselves of the opportunity in the past, and haven't been subject to a vendetta of police harassment!

 

 

Derek

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I'm going to partly defend Peelmanx here and not just because I think "The belt hasn't been tightened, the stomach has got bigger" is a great line, useful in all sort of contexts.

 

It is really depressing how the reaction to any sort of criticism (particularly of public services) on the Island isn't to say "No, you are wrong, because of..." Instead the immediate response is "Why are you saying that? Who are you to say that? You must have a grudge". Now I don't know if Peelmanx has got something against the police or not, the point is it doesn't matter[1], you should deal with them according to their merits, without accusations of axe grinding or whatever. This parochial habit of assigning a personal motive to every opinion and dismissing it (or supporting it) on that basis is a bit silly.

 

I'd like to pick up on couple of points that Andrew made about police retirement age, because they are very widely stated (not just on the Island) but I don't think either of them stand up to examination. The first is that older officers would somehow be unable to cope with the physical demands of the job or as he quotes the Chief Constable, "patrolling the streets and working in and around licensed premises at night is not a job for people aged sixty"[2].

 

This is pretty much nonsense if you think about it. You judge suitability for a job based on the whole of what that job implies, not just on its most extreme bits. It would make just as much sense to say that all police offices must hold an FCA because they might have to investigate a complicated fraud case. Though it's worth pointing out that even in the situation that the CC is so concerned about diplomacy and people skills may be more important than muscle power and older officers may actually be better.

 

In any case today's sixty year olds are probably much fitter and in better health (and keeping fit is part of the job) than even their younger predecessors would have been in the distant past when the current expectations were set (much less smoking for a start). These appeals to the importance of the physical component of the job look back decades to a time when being in the police was a (much less well paid) working class job and such men would usually die in their 50s

 

The second related point is about pensions. While the police do indeed now pay more than other public servants, they also retire earlier and so have many more years of retirement for that pension to fund. ONS figures (Excel file) suggest that a man aged 50 today will have another 35.8 years of life. Someone aged 65 will only have 21.5 years[3]. A policeman will have more years in retirement[4] than he does at work. You need to pay a pretty high percentage of your wages when you are working for only 30 years to fund that - and I doubt 13% will be enough. (I do realise that the police aren't anywhere near the worst offenders in the public service here - MHKs also get a full pension after 30 years after all - but they're not free from blame either).

 

Actually my biggest gripe with police retirement age is something else. It's just a ridiculous situation that we expect people to retire at an age in their career when they should be at their professional peak. All those skills and the experience and knowledge built up over the years are wasted.

 

I don't blame the police for trying to hold on to what is (let's be honest) a cushy number - we all would do the same. But you can't expect the rest of us not to point out the implications

 

 

[1] It is true that suffering (what you think is) a personal injustice may suddenly alert you to all sorts of things that you were quite happy to ignore before, because they didn't affect you and you thought they never would. (I refer your lordships to the case of Mr Jonathan Irving) But the wrongs were still there (or not) before, and while personal experience may make the points more vivid, the evidence can still be discussed without taking everything as being personally motivated

 

[2] Obviously I note the CC's generous offer to provide (presumably from police funds) pensions for all bar staff and pub landlords after their compulsory retirement at 50. Though given that they spend a much higher percentage of their time "working in and around licensed premises at night" perhaps they should retire even earlier.

 

[3] It's not 15 years difference because the men who die between 50 and 65 mean that if you actually get to 65 your life expectance is higher than it was at 50 less 15 years.

 

[4] Yes I know many, perhaps most, then get another job on retirement. But that rather proves my point.

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