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2014 Debate On Jobs, Work & Pensions

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Its a very simple equation is it not? We are spending more on govt. services than we are bringing in through tax.

 

You tax more or you borrow more.

 

Taxing ain't no vote winner folks ... that little nugget comes for free.

 

NdP

x

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Its a very simple equation is it not? We are spending more on govt. services than we are bringing in through tax.

 

You tax more or you borrow more.

 

Taxing ain't no vote winner folks ... that little nugget comes for free.

 

NdP

x

But this week Alex Downie gave them a lesson on the Laffer Curve. Now they think if you increase taxes at all it won't bring in as much money as they hoped.

But it would bring in some which they are desperately going to need in order to balance the books.

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I dont see how we can avoid introducing the same pension payments and more importantly the same retirement ages as they are introducing in the UK.

 

This "consultation" or whatever it is called this time is just a bluff, we are tied to the UK via the reciprocal agreement and therefore must do the same as they do.

 

The debate is totally worthless, we will do as we are told as normal................

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Chris Robertshaw is seeking a 2014 national debate on 'Pensions'. Can the subject really be debated in isolation? Leading up to the next election, let's thrash out the whole future of jobs, work creation, and - yes, pensions - in our island economy

 

You start Chris

 

Who would moderate this debate and how would we know who wins? As usual, the clowns in charge win and the rest of us lose. Just look at what happened in the UK when the largest number of people in the history of the country protested in opposition to the invasion of Iraq. How impressed we were. Then the government ignored them and invaded, anyway. If the people of the UK get ignored, why would the Manx people be any different? The rats at the top make their own rules and they decide the parameters and conclusions of their own debates. I think the general consensus is perfectly self-obvious to anyone with a brain but our politicians don't have the testicles to man up and make the important decisions themselves. Or at least the politicians running the show -- I do appreciate that there are a few reasonable voices in the House of Keys. It's just that they're a minority and so have little sway on actual policy.

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But this week Alex Downie gave them a lesson on the Laffer Curve.

 

The chimney sweep did what?

 

This guy's level of debate is on a par with our Geoff's.

 

Maybe 100 years ago our MHKs might well have been at or near the top of the education/intelligence tree, but modern life is so diverse and huge amounts of information and a good education has been available to just about all of our younger generations. There really are some clowns in Tynwald these days showing themselves up every time they open their mouths to put their feet in it.

Edited by carbon selector

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Robertshaw's megalomania is getting the better of him with all this stuff.

 

If he goes through the motions of havinga 'national debate' he will be able to claim democracy has been done. He'll make his decisions very much regardless anyway.

 

Well, let's stop him 'going through the motions' & request that he joins in debate

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Anyone know how these things are undertaken in Scandinavia? Logically you see value in combining state pensions, benefits & taxation so that everyone achieves a certain minimum standard of living, and only pays tax on earnings above that

don't know exact figures yet but no 1 son lives on Denmark and raves about how good the social support is, pensions, medical care and education etc...............but in the next breath admits that he pays over 50% tax along with most employees to support this..........cars have over 100% purchase tax on them I believe.

I will report if he gets back with accurate figures.

 

 

actually just discovered the car sales tax is 180%

 

Be interesting to learn if their social support system is fully integrated

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I have every intention of joining the debate on here at the same time as taking it out to the general public through public meetings, putting the information on line and engaging in radio programmes and through newspaper articles etc. This will happen next year once my department, the treasury and our consultants have pulled together a set of options for people to consider.

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downie the chimney sweep,dont make me fu*king laff.

Alex 'Machine Gun' Downie. He's always been a Laffer minute.

 

Would be funny if we were not broke because of arseholes like him.

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CR

 

I admire your open debate stance. I have a few quick points

 

1. Please remember that you, as the minister (or your successor) is the person responsible for making the important decisions. You cannot hide behind a smoke screen of "I have consulted with the people" or "expert advice has been received" etc. Ultimately the buck stops with you.

 

2. In order for any debate to be meaningful we must have full and complete disclosure

 

3. As pointed out above (I think by Albert) you should only be looking at a reasonable timescale - probably 5 years. Projecting to 2050 and making assertions that we need to change everything because by 2034 x will happen is nonsense.

 

4. Remember that you are playing with people's lives/livelihoods here. Listening to MR I can tell that you have already upset some pensioners. Speaking for myself (10 years to pension age) I find it impossible to "plan" for retirement - I simply do not know whether you will suddenly change the pension age (again), scrap the Manx supplement, maybe stop state pensions altogether for certain classes etc. In other words, over the years we have been lied to by successive governments and learnt not to trust anything we are told. (This is not a personal attack)

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I have every intention of joining the debate on here at the same time as taking it out to the general public through public meetings, putting the information on line and engaging in radio programmes and through newspaper articles etc. This will happen next year once my department, the treasury and our consultants have pulled together a set of options for people to consider.

 

Good man

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I have every intention of joining the debate on here at the same time as taking it out to the general public through public meetings, putting the information on line and engaging in radio programmes and through newspaper articles etc. This will happen next year once my department, the treasury and our consultants have pulled together a set of options for people to consider.

 

Good man

Where?

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Wonder where the consultants will source their ideas from, & whether they'll recommend a massive downsizing of bloated central government to make Manx pensions affordable?

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I don't see how a rational debate can be held.

 

Robertshaw announced a 'national debate' on benefits last year as well. That turned out to be little more than a ham fisted public consultation littered with questions leaning on the wrong side of leading, and this will be just the same.

 

His branding it a 'national debate' is simply a fatuous and unimaginative imitation of Tony Blair's proposed 'Big Conversation' and similar nomenclature currently floating around in the UK press.

I think the reason why the debate on benefits had a smaller "audience" was because for the vast majority of people out there believed they won't ever need to rely on benefits, either now or in the future. Pensions, on the other hand, is whole different kettle of wotsit.

 

Everyone who is entitled to a pension, and I would suggest that's probably the vast majority of residents (who don't plan to move off-Island), will be more concerned about any changes that COMIN are looking to introduce and how that would affect their own pot. Most people regard their life's contribution to the pot as 'theirs'. And any change to that perception is going to be a hard sell on COMIN's part.

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