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MLC opposes chief minister vote reform


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http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/legco-will-keep-vote-for-chief-minister-1-7854945#ixzz45yuajw76

 

Bill Henderson said [something like]: ‘As far as I’m concerned I am a Bill which has very little effect and benefits the island very little'...

 

 

Why do these people believe they have a right to govern the people and make decisions for the people, without having a mandate from the people? I disagree with much of what Mr Henderson does, in terms of his support for the rich while drip feeding ever more indirect taxes & cuts to the poor. But I have no way of getting rid of him. And he wants to choose the next Chief Minister, because he (& Geoff & the rest) know what's best for me. How many LC votes in the bag for Bill Henderson's good friend, Mr Teare?

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The Hansard for Tuesday's LegCo is now available. As Chris Thomas said they actually threw it out at the formal First Reading stage which is normally just nodded through. Clearly even the thought of having their powers diminished was too much to bear.

 

The debate on the Council of Ministers Bill was notable for the fact that even Corkish managed to speak rather than chunnering in the background. It's all fairly depressing with the sort of circular arguments ("It's the job of Tynwald not the Keys"; complaints that there are more important things that they should be spending their time on[1]; claiming that they should wait for yet another report; claiming they know better than the Keys; and so on. The sheer arrogance and weakness of the arguments is astonishing.

 

 

[1] This was one of LegCo's longer sessions lasting from 10:30 to 12:18 - a whole hour and 48 minutes, though they did consider a number of other Bills. You can't really expect them to put in more than a couple of hours a week for that money.

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As MLC Coleman keeps bleating, they do more work than the late-start-early-finish of the Tuesday morning get together upstairs from the Keys.

 

But Coleman's work (and the others) is mainly to deputise and/or support Ministers and other departmental work. They are in effect wildcard members of the Government, but untethered by the democratic process, but always of course in the pocket of the Chief Minister and Co.

 

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the Council of Ministers voted in favour of this Bill "in the name of democracy" but in full knowledge that their pals in the untouchable and mighty Legislative Council would kick it out.

 

At least the Bishop, in his mealy mouthed two-facing way, was being open.

Edited by gettafa
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The Manx political system is a joke. Stop holding onto a political role whilst at the same time trying to dilute democracy from within in order to reinforce and perpetuate your own unelected position to the detriment of the general rights of the Manx people.

The Manx Labour Party has sold the Island out more than the finance sector. All that's left is a "figurehead" who decided to side swipe democracy and the votes of his members and retreat to the upper house. Are his actions that surprising? It's the best gig in town for a "working man" who probably hasn't worked in 15 years.

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Roger, thank you very bloody much for the Hansard link, Jeeze it was boring!

 

None of the scenarios envisaged by Henderson, Corkish or Turner, ( as far as I got ), would be affected by a Keys elected CM but I don't suppose anyone challenged them?

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The Hansard for Tuesday's LegCo is now available. As Chris Thomas said they actually threw it out at the formal First Reading stage which is normally just nodded through. Clearly even the thought of having their powers diminished was too much to bear.

 

The debate on the Council of Ministers Bill was notable for the fact that even Corkish managed to speak rather than chunnering in the background. It's all fairly depressing with the sort of circular arguments ("It's the job of Tynwald not the Keys"; complaints that there are more important things that they should be spending their time on[1]; claiming that they should wait for yet another report; claiming they know better than the Keys; and so on. The sheer arrogance and weakness of the arguments is astonishing.

 

 

[1] This was one of LegCo's longer sessions lasting from 10:30 to 12:18 - a whole hour and 48 minutes, though they did consider a number of other Bills. You can't really expect them to put in more than a couple of hours a week for that money.

According to the internet reports Cretney read the Bill in LegCo and Coleman (another Manx Labour Party member) seconded the motion only for him to actually vote against the Bill.

The conflict of Cretneys role as Chairman of the Manx Labour Party and his unelected role in Legco has been raised before. It looks to me that far from being a party of the Manx worker the Manx Labour Party is, in fact, a party voting for the interests of the unaccountable political elite and the Manx Right Wing Junta who seek to politically control this Island - and a party with senior members who are actively pursuing policies which are directly contributing to a lack of accountability and democracy in the IOM and reinforcing the powers of those very same people. Cretney should be forced to renounce his role with the Manx Labour Party. He is a disgrace - as is Coleman. They have chosen to perpetuate the unelected powers of themselves over the rights of the Manx working man to have more control over who is our Chief Minister. Cretney in particular cannot and should not hold a political role as head of a party that is supposed to represent the working man and then be allowed to arrange between him and his unelected Manx Labour chums in Legco to play a role in voting down a Bill which seeks to give less power to Legco and more power to the public over who we choose as our Chief Minister.

The Manx political system is a joke. Stop holding onto a political role whilst at the same time trying to dilute democracy from within in order to reinforce and perpetuate your own unelected position to the detriment of the general rights of the Manx people.

I missed this originally - but bang on! I really can't understand how Cretney as an unelected MLC is allowed to operate as de facto head of a political party. If Coleman is an MLP member too then this is a slam dunk insult to every MLP member who thinks it is a party for the working people of the IOM. They've just pulled the drawbridge up and looked after their own interests ahead of those of the general voting public.

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A couple of points.

 

Firstly I think Keys actually passed this Bill unanimously, not 19 to 4. Mr Teare voted against the Leave to Introduce and Mr Watterson introduced some amendments which had a little support, but Third Reading went through Keys unanimously. Thus the indirectly-elected Legislative Council overruled the unanimous will of the elected chamber.

 

Secondly, Legislative Council failed to perform its scrutiny role in that the Bill was dismissed at the 1st Reading. Several times I have challenged the Legislative Council to step up to the role of a fit for purpose legislative committee, and it failed with this bill. Explicitly I asked it between Clauses and Third Readings of the Council of Ministers (Amendment Bill) in Keys as follows:

 

"I also want to put on record that the Legislative Council plays a very important committee role in our legislative process and we do have full hearings and three Readings of this Bill at the Legislative Council stage, where officers can be approached; the public can make their opinions known; where all of us can go and lobby. Whilst we still have the privilege of eight or nine Readings for Bills, let us make sure we take advantage and show the Legislative Council the respect and invite them to actually do the proper scrutiny as a legislative committee for the 21st century."

 

The Legislative Council declined this invitation, even failing to acknowledge it.

 

The debate in Tynwald next Tuesday around my "Voting as one body" motion - if there is time to have it - will be positive and illuminating for our practitioner independent expert, Lord Lisvane, I hope.

Chris correct me if I'm wrong, but in the UK where the Lords throw out a bill, it goes back to the Commons and they have the power to vote it back again, and it then becomes law.

The Lords as a un-elected chamber are on the same lines as Legco, so if we are a so called democracy, why can't the HOK overrule Legco.

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Isle of Man Constitution Act 2006 page 5

 

And if the Keys pass this Bill (17 members required for them to do so in a sitting of Tynwald) the current Legislative Council will all be there, having ridden the gravy train for a year with more to come.

 

It is about time the Legislative Council was abolished or greatly amended. ....but I think just about everyone on the Island (except the members and families of LegCo) have said that.

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Incidentally, when the above relatively small Bill was going through its process, the Legislative Council took 2 years to go through it. So they were even holding up the legislation designed to stop them, er, holding up legislation. In the event, the LegCo amendment to the Bill was to increase the delaying powers from 6 months to 12 months (the Keys originally wanted a 3 month delay but conceaded an increase to 6 months to appease LegCo, but then LegCo doubled that).

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Chris correct me if I'm wrong, but in the UK where the Lords throw out a bill, it goes back to the Commons and they have the power to vote it back again, and it then becomes law.

The Lords as a un-elected chamber are on the same lines as Legco, so if we are a so called democracy, why can't the HOK overrule Legco.

 

 

You are right EORH, as is gettafa.

 

House of Lords was given merely legislative delaying power in 1911, Tynwald's Legislative Council was given the same in 1961. Our 2006 Act amended or replaced the earlier one.

 

Mr Cannan's 2016 Council of Ministers (Amendment) Bill can be put back to Legislative Council by Keys in July 2017, after the 2016 General Election. The Bill does not die in August 2016 when Keys is dissolved even though Legislative Council has voted against it.

 

A member could bring another bill to achieve similar ends sooner than that I think.

 

The law about Chief Minister election only requires 17 votes of those "present and voting" in Tynwald, so Keys could still elect a Chief Minister this September without Legislative Council having too much of an influence. Standing orders would need to be suspended or amended to achieve this cleanly.

Edited by Chris Thomas
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"..without Legislative Council having too much of an influence". Isn't that like saying a little bit pregnant, or something ?

 

The secret ballot for CM is whole of Tynwald. We wouldn't know who voted.

Lately the ballot for Chief Minister has been a bit drawn out but not on the scale of the farcical Leg Co voting. If LegCo were excluded could you imagine their faces in Tynwald? Corkish' supply of phlegm would dry up and he'd have a face on him like a scelped arse.

 

The only way to go is abolish the Legislative Council. In theory it is fine but of late it has become full of deadbeats who have repeatedly demonstrated it is a worthless anachronistic sinecure.

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http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/legco-will-keep-vote-for-chief-minister-1-7854945#ixzz45yuajw76

 

Bill Henderson said [something like]: ‘As far as I’m concerned I am a Bill which has very little effect and benefits the island very little'...

 

 

Why do these people believe they have a right to govern the people and make decisions for the people, without having a mandate from the people? I disagree with much of what Mr Henderson does, in terms of his support for the rich while drip feeding ever more indirect taxes & cuts to the poor. But I have no way of getting rid of him.

 

 

I don't think he'll be bullet or stab proof??? thumbsup.gif

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