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Tempus Fugit

Pubs closing

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On 2/6/2019 at 7:27 PM, dilligaf said:

I doubt that it could ever get back to being a busy and profitable pub. It was always a pub that had to be driven to and from and the DD laws being firmly applied now have stopped that.

Even when Graham and Danny had it and ran a transport bus it died on its arse and they had it bouncing once.

But even if H&B can stop 20 people leaving their pubs to drink in a possible new venture then it's worth it to them to put a covenant on any sales.

Graham and Danny had it absolutely bouncing. Did it not die on its arse only after they had gone and taken the crowd over to Molly's Kitchen? I think it could work if it was run along the lines of The Hawthorn, perhaps with an extension into the car park. I think it's a dreadful shame. The brewery made a big thing about the losses sustained by the previous operator, but I don't know that their ultimate demise was entirely attributable to the Liverpool Arms. The most recent "refurbishment" was also a disaster that removed every vestige of character from the place.

Whatever the possibilities, the brewery should simply not be permitted to throttle them before birth with covenants on a sale of the property. I would argue that there are far wider interests in a public house than just those of the company that happens to be the current owner of the building.

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3 minutes ago, woolley said:

Graham and Danny had it absolutely bouncing. Did it not die on its arse only after they had gone and taken the crowd over to Molly's Kitchen? I think it could work if it was run along the lines of The Hawthorn, perhaps with an extension into the car park. I think it's a dreadful shame. The brewery made a big thing about the losses sustained by the previous operator, but I don't know that their ultimate demise was entirely attributable to the Liverpool Arms. The most recent "refurbishment" was also a disaster that removed every vestige of character from the place.

Whatever the possibilities, the brewery should simply not be permitted to throttle them before birth with covenants on a sale of the property. I would argue that there are far wider interests in a public house than just those of the company that happens to be the current owner of the building.

Graham and Danny did well in every venture. A lovely couple who knew how to entertain and serve the needs of pub goers.

But that was in a different time and climate. Pubs are dying everywhere and I very much doubt that any new pub could be a winner.

The only exception to that being a Micro Brewery Pub. That also won't be easy to sustain.

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On 2/6/2019 at 9:21 PM, dilligaf said:

Current climate financially has killed the LA, not the brewery.

So why not sell it to someone else to have a go?

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45 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

Graham and Danny did well in every venture. A lovely couple who knew how to entertain and serve the needs of pub goers.

But that was in a different time and climate. Pubs are dying everywhere and I very much doubt that any new pub could be a winner.

I know that the climate is challenging Dilli, and if the brewery are throwing in the towel on the Liverpool Arms then, of course, that is their prerogative. No argument. What is not their prerogative is to throw in the towel on behalf of every other prospective proprietor by seeking to bar anyone from even having a go. It should not be allowed. Once the property is sold their influence over it should be extinguished. Covenants are not designed as tools for the restriction of trade and competition and they should not be allowed to be used as such.

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3 minutes ago, woolley said:

I know that the climate is challenging Dilli, and if the brewery are throwing in the towel on the Liverpool Arms then, of course, that is their prerogative. No argument. What is not their prerogative is to throw in the towel on behalf of every other prospective proprietor by seeking to bar anyone from even having a go. It should not be allowed. Once the property is sold their influence over it should be extinguished. Covenants are not designed as tools for the restriction of trade and competition and they should not be allowed to be used as such.

Excuse my lack of knowledge here then. What is a covenant for then, if not to stop a business rival ?

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44 minutes ago, woolley said:

So why not sell it to someone else to have a go?

Exactly they just dont want it to be successful for anyone else as they’ve failed at it hence the covernant. 

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1 minute ago, dilligaf said:

Excuse my lack of knowledge here then. What is a covenant for then, if not to stop a business rival ?

They are normally used to preserve a right, for example you sell a building but there is a covenant allowing users to continue to enjoy their existing right of access to it etc. Or perhaps to stop the owner doing something that would affect the rights of neighbours. To me, the use of covenants to stifle a potential business rival should not be allowed in a free market economy.

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11 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

Excuse my lack of knowledge here then. What is a covenant for then, if not to stop a business rival ?

Ironically, they can also be used to preserve tradition.

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8 minutes ago, thesultanofsheight said:

Exactly they just dont want it to be successful for anyone else as they’ve failed at it hence the covernant. 

Sour grapes, anti-competitive practice and nothing else. Because they've been bitten so many times before by houses that been sold to freehouse operators.

Who have invested, refurbished and made an effort and subsequent success. Sometimes to the degree that other remaining H&B pubs have suffered. So the brewery's answer is to wreak revenge on the whole trade, if you like. But as the biggest operator they are doing considerable damage to the trade as a whole with their policies.

The lack of investment in brewery pubs/buildings was brought up in Tynwald IIRC, about 10 yrs ago. Alex Downie had a go. So it's been ongoing policy for a while. They have only themselves to blame but petulance won't improve matters.

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7 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Sour grapes, anti-competitive practice and nothing else. Because they've been bitten so many times before by houses that been sold to freehouse operators.

Who have invested, refurbished and made an effort and subsequent success. Sometimes to the degree that other remaining H&B pubs have suffered. So the brewery's answer is to wreak revenge on the whole trade, if you like. But as the biggest operator they are doing considerable damage to the trade as a whole with their policies.

The lack of investment in brewery pubs/buildings was brought up in Tynwald IIRC, about 10 yrs ago. Alex Downie had a go. So it's been ongoing policy for a while. They have only themselves to blame but petulance won't improve matters.

But H&B are not a public service. They are a private business trying to make money. I would bet that they have even kept loss making pubs open as long as possible to help the locals. NB , which pubs have H&B sold that have been a great success for their rivals. I am thinking maybe The Bay in PE. I can't think of any others TBH.

 Edit to add Tatlock's pub.

Edited by dilligaf

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1 minute ago, dilligaf said:

But H&B are not a public service. They are a private business trying to make money. I would bet that they have even kept loss making pubs open as long as possible to help the locals. NB , which pubs have H&B sold that have been a great success for their rivals. I am thinking maybe The Bay in PE. I can't think of any others TBH.

Do you work for the brewery by any chance? Give me an instance where the brewery help the locals? I’ll go make a cup of tea while you post one

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Whatever everyone thinks about the brewery, I believe that as a general principle, nobody should be able to sell a commercial property with a condition that it cannot be used for its purpose.  Simple as that. What gives them the right to close it for all time when they no longer own it? It's an affront.

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2 minutes ago, PmJ said:
4 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

But H&B are not a public service. They are a private business trying to make money. I would bet that they have even kept loss making pubs open as long as possible to help the locals. NB , which pubs have H&B sold that have been a great success for their rivals. I am thinking maybe The Bay in PE. I can't think of any others TBH.  

Do you work for the brewery by any chance? Give me an instance where the brewery help the locals? I’ll go make a cup of tea while you post one

 

Yes I have worked under the H&B umbrella some years ago. I owe them nothing and vice versa.

I just don't like seeing them slagged off for trying to make a profit.

They are (I think) the islands biggest private employer and as such, in my view deserve a bit of respect. 

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1 minute ago, woolley said:

Whatever everyone thinks about the brewery, I believe that as a general principle, nobody should be able to sell a commercial property with a condition that it cannot be used for its purpose.  Simple as that. What gives them the right to close it for all time when they no longer own it? It's an affront.

Simple condition of sale. Nothing more. Why all the aggro. The place has died. Let it rest in peace.

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