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I've said it before and I'll say it again... Skelly as CM would be the terminal breath of credible politics in the Isle of Man.

Shut up.

I hope he gets in if only to piss you off. Which it clearly would.

Some would say it was childish to insert evidently false and antagonistic statements in to an opening gambit. I've already been warned about engaging trolls on here, and I promised not to do it again. Stick by my promises see. ;-)

 

If you want to debate your points of concern I'm happy to do so once you've retracted the false statements you made, which indicate trolling intent.

Edited by James Hampton
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Some would say it was childish to insert evidently false and antagonistic statements in to an opening gambit. I've already been warned about engaging trolls on here, and I promised not to do it again. Stick by my promises see. ;-)

If you want to debate your points of concern I'm happy to do so once you've retracted the false statements you made, which indicate trolling intent.

That really is quite a childish response. I'm sure any form of descent against your views will be written off as trolling if you get in. Same as Lawrence Skelly on Twitter over the Tom Jones concert in that respect. If you question me you're obviously a troll. You don't really seem to have many answers for people who question your beliefs. The California posts and links were very clear and there is strong evidence that direct democracy has consigned the entire state to be the Greece of the USA.

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If you falsify statements in order to get a rise out of someone and then will not back them up I think that is what most people would consider trolling. If you've got the proof to back up what you said you're not trolling - but you haven't, otherwise you would have provided it. This is your game not mine child. All I've done is highlight the intent of your action by showing that you made false statements regarding my commitments in terms of what I would do and how I would be paid if I were elected. Once we've dealt with that personal attack I'm happy to explain why you are wrong about direct democracy.

Edited by James Hampton
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You come across as quite a childish man when you don't get your own way.

And you? What do you come across as?

 

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If you falsify statements in order to get a rise out of someone and then will not back them up I think that is what most people would consider trolling. If you've got the proof to back up what you said you're not trolling - but you haven't, otherwise you would have provided it. This is your game not mine child. All I've done is highlight the intent of your action by showing that you made false statements regarding my commitments in terms of what I would do and how I would be paid if I were elected. Once we've dealt with that personal attack I'm happy to explain why you are wrong about direct democracy.

There are some good Facebook comments but even searching Forums on here it's clear that you weren't exactly sounding too positive about what you'd be doing for £45k a year if you ever stood.

 

http://www.manxforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/60906-experiment-in-direct-democracy/?p=1102560

 

"[And] what good would standing for the keys do exactly? The system is rigged to prevent change. If I want to bang my head against a brick wall I can find a more satisfying method than becoming an impotent MHK."

 

However despite believing that you will effectively be impotent within the system is the public to assume that you're now quite happy to take £45k a year for banging your head against a brick wall? Should the public also assume that as this is possibly the reality of the situation and that's probably why you now say that you wont be taking the full package? If that is what you genuinely believe then it would surely be hard to justify £45k a year for head banging?

 

The likelihood is that even if DD came in on a Swiss-style model after a long number of years of head banging; actual referendums would be few and far between and might seem likely to apply only 4% of the time (as in Switzerland). So are we to assume that 96% of the time you will be in office will consist largely of head banging, and (ultimately) 4% of the time might be involved in referendums on proposed legislation at some stage?

 

On the being a passive MHK comment your own election website says

 

"What do I know thats different to any other prospective candidate? Mainly I know that I dont know everything. I have strong political opinion on most subjects, however one thing I believe in more than anything else is that I should not have the power to wield those views over others even if I have been elected to represent them To represent is not to dictate."

 

That's a very passive stance to take for £45k a year.

 

I think that covers both points.

 

You did ask for more information. The personal comments above should not be construed as trolling.

Edited by JackCarter
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You come across as quite a childish man when you don't get your own way.

 

And you? What do you come across as?

I've asked some perfectly reasonable questions and posted some perfectly reasonable links on the failings of direct democracy in California. I am yet to see any replies of substance other than childish rebuffs and accusations of trolling.

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If you falsify statements in order to get a rise out of someone and then will not back them up I think that is what most people would consider trolling. If you've got the proof to back up what you said you're not trolling - but you haven't, otherwise you would have provided it. This is your game not mine child. All I've done is highlight the intent of your action by showing that you made false statements regarding my commitments in terms of what I would do and how I would be paid if I were elected. Once we've dealt with that personal attack I'm happy to explain why you are wrong about direct democracy.

There are some good Facebook comments but even searching Forums on here it's clear that you weren't exactly sounding too positive about what you'd be doing for £45k a year if you ever stood.

 

http://www.manxforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/60906-experiment-in-direct-democracy/?p=1102560

 

"[And] what good would standing for the keys do exactly? The system is rigged to prevent change. If I want to bang my head against a brick wall I can find a more satisfying method than becoming an impotent MHK."

 

However despite believing that you will effectively be impotent within the system is the public to assume that you're now quite happy to take £45k a year for banging your head against a brick wall? Should the public also assume that as this is possibly the reality of the situation and that's probably why you now say that you wont be taking the full package? If that is what you genuinely believe then it would surely be hard to justify £45k a year for head banging?

 

The likelihood is that even if DD came in on a Swiss-style model after a long number of years of head banging; actual referendums would be few and far between and might seem likely to apply only 4% of the time (as in Switzerland). So are we to assume that 96% of the time you will be in office will consist largely of head banging, and (ultimately) 4% of the time might be involved in referendums on proposed legislation at some stage?

 

On the being a passive MHK comment your own election website says

 

"What do I know thats different to any other prospective candidate? Mainly I know that I dont know everything. I have strong political opinion on most subjects, however one thing I believe in more than anything else is that I should not have the power to wield those views over others even if I have been elected to represent them To represent is not to dictate."

 

That's a very passive stance to take for £45k a year.

 

I think that covers both points.

 

You did ask for more information. The personal comments above should not be construed as trolling.

 

 

 

OK, so I guess that's about as close as we're going to get to an acknowledgement that either you don't understand what you're talking about, don't understand what you've read, or you were intentionally trying to misconstrue it.

 

To put what I said back in to it's original context.

 

"[And] what good would standing for the keys do exactly? The system is rigged to prevent change. If I want to bang my head against a brick wall I can find a more satisfying method than becoming an impotent MHK."

 

This statement was made with reference to standing on a conventional platform - the same as every other candidate - i.e. vote for me I can do x - y - z, I'm the man for the job, I'm better than the last guy, I will fight for you, I will stand my ground and all the rest of the usual bullshit. If you knew anything about the way our political system operates you'd know that it doesn't matter what my (or your) political ideas are, or how much of a ball breaker you think you are. If elected you would either be within the ring of collective responsibility (and so take the money, shut up and do as told), or be outside it raving like a good'un and achieving nothing - but at least you get a front row seat on every fuck up. If that is not the definition of head-banging I don't know what is. That is why I'm proposing something entirely different, because I'm not stupid enough to believe I'm the wonder boy who can over come all that to prevent the serious failures which lie ahead.

 

As for being passive - OK you got me. I don't want to be a megalomanic dictator. If that's the style of government you want - and you think is the definition of active - then fair enough. If being prepared to put in the graft to actually represent (and so force government to listen to the public) is being passive then you've read a different dictionary to me. If hypothetically you were standing for election, your position is essentially that the public are too thick to make decisions for themselves, and you have to lie to them in order to get elected so that you can do all the nasty shit that needs doing. Of course you cannot tell them about all the nasty shit in your manifesto because they wouldn't elect you. Sounds like status quo. Nice one. That's why I'm standing against you. Hypothetically of course.

 

I've already explained how I think (how I hope) the process would pan out if I were elected - regarding island wide voting on a program for government, and ensuring that is followed. I do not envisage referenda on everything here, and I don't think it's particularly the best model anyway. The main point is about power. The power the public should have to force the government to go in the direction it wants. As the Swiss model proves if that power is in place it's usually not needed, but it's only the fact that it is there which ensures it's not needed - bit like a nuclear deterrent. The fact that the public can force any issue will eventually mean better results from regular representative democracy.

 

Moving on to the point on California. Again you've completely failed to give any context. First off I don't think the California model is a very good example to use. It's a bit of a mess to be honest, but even so can you start by telling me what you think is the negative social consequence of the problem you feel you've highlighted? Feel free to reference the fact that California is something like the sixth largest economy in the world on it's own, seeing as your attempt to compare it to Greece feels a little desperate. I appreciate that the size of an economy is no good indicator of it's social cohesion, I'm just interested to know how you're going to pad out this argument on that basis.

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i get it. What you're proposing is completely different in a sort of unexplainable way. And let's avoid references to California as they don't fit your world view. And you admit you're passive. Great.

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