Jump to content

Recommended Posts

i get it. What you're proposing is completely different in a sort of unexplainable way. And let's avoid references to California as they don't fit your world view. And you admit you're passive. Great.

 

 

Unexplainable to you maybe. I explained it pretty clearly, if you don't get it I'm sorry I can't help any more. I think you do get it though, that's why you're here.

 

Nobody I've spoken to face to face seems to be having any trouble with the idea anyhow. It's just a shame I won't be able to speak to more people before the main event.

 

You either want a choice in the system of government and policy direction under which you live, or you don't. Voting for the same old same old, or the next guy in line, is not going to provide any choice no matter who they are. Only if the public make the effort will it change, and that's only likely to happen when things start to really hurt. The real hurt is going to happen in the next 5 years as frontline services start to fail, and people suffer and die as a result - it is happening already.

 

You've gone to all the effort of digging up what you think is a negative outcome of DD, I ask you one question to put it in context and you fold? You're really not up to this politics stuff fella. There was me thinking you'd got me on the ropes. Great come back. No really, you nailed it.

Edited by James Hampton
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 724
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Skelly as CM would be the terminal breath of credible politics in the Isle of Man.

Shut up.

I hope he gets in if only to piss you off. Which it clearly would.

You've gone to all the effort of digging up what you think is a negative outcome of DD, I ask you one question to put it in context and you fold? You're really not up to this politics stuff fella. There was me thinking you'd got me on the ropes. Great come back. No really, you nailed it.

 

You're the democracy snake oil salesman and that was a poor comeback for someone who admitted he was a passive candidate when you had asked for proof that you were. How can you claim anyone folded when your accusations were so poor? You wrote off the California comparison in a few words just like Craggy Steve (according to you its a poor example to use because it doesn't support your false claims). There is a whole state that has embraced direct democracy that is mired in billions of debt that can't even raise taxes to contribute to that debt because of the flaws in direct democracy. But that's irrelevant according to you. As I said you clearly get very childish when cornered.

Edited by JackCarter
Link to post
Share on other sites

What are the negative social consequences of DD in California?

 

For one it has the worst state schooling system in the entire United States (regressing from one of the best) despite being the equivalent of the world's sixth (or eighth) largest economy. It is claimed a significant contributor to this is that direct democracy ensures the state can't raise more taxes to spend on social projects and essential services like schooling as the majority refuse to vote for much needed tax increases.

 

http://www.salon.com/2012/10/02/california_educations_painful_decline/

 

It has also been failing socially across the board for many years according to the Guardian

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/oct/04/california-failing-state-debt

 

"Nowhere is the economic cost of California's crisis writ larger than in the Central Valley town of Mendota, smack in the heart of a dusty landscape of flat, endless fields of fruit and vegetables. The town, which boldly terms itself "the cantaloup capital of the world", now has an unemployment rate of 38%. That is expected to rise above 50% as the harvest ends and labourers are laid off. City officials hold food giveaways every two weeks. More than 40% of the town's people live below the poverty level. Shops have shut, restaurants have closed, drugs and alcohol abuse have become a problem."

Edited by JackCarter
Link to post
Share on other sites

For one it has the worst state schooling system in the entire United States (regressing from one of the best) despite being the equivalent of the world's sixth (or eighth) largest economy. It is claimed a significant contributor to this is that direct democracy ensures the state can't raise more taxes to spend on social projects and essential services like schooling as the majority refuse to vote for much needed tax increases.

You've mentioned this matter of Californian tax rates more than a few times. You do realise I suppose that California has the highest sales tax in the USA and overall always features in the top ten highest tax-rate states? If people are resisting further uneconomic tax rises there may be a good reason. California collects much more tax than any other state in the USA, it does not get the highest income per capita merely because it has a high proportion of low income families, which is the cause of its social problems, but it's a long way from the bottom of the US state tax league. Taxing the poor more is rarely a solution. California's problems are down to overpopulation and poor administration. Raising taxes will simply further reduce jobs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

For one it has the worst state schooling system in the entire United States (regressing from one of the best) despite being the equivalent of the world's sixth (or eighth) largest economy. It is claimed a significant contributor to this is that direct democracy ensures the state can't raise more taxes to spend on social projects and essential services like schooling as the majority refuse to vote for much needed tax increases.

 

You've mentioned this matter of Californian tax rates more than a few times. You do realise I suppose that California has the highest sales tax in the USA and overall always features in the top ten highest tax-rate states? If people are resisting further uneconomic tax rises there may be a good reason. California collects much more tax than any other state in the USA, it does not get the highest income per capita merely because it has a high proportion of low income families, which is the cause of its social problems, but it's a long way from the bottom of the US state tax league. Taxing the poor more is rarely a solution. California's problems are down to overpopulation and poor administration. Raising taxes will simply further reduce jobs.

That's far too simplistic. But then again you really on pretty simple people to sell your draft concept to. It remains a fact that one of the few states that has adopted Direct Democracy is the most bankrupt state in the entire USA. Because turkeys don't vote for Xmas. The IOM is no different; in a direct democracy nobody is going to vote to make IOM government workers pensions more sustainable, or to put up taxes, or to reign in public expenditure because by far the bigger demographic group here is tied to the Manx public sector either directly (through employment, spouse or children's employment, or through receiving grants, government contracts, or other forms of government patronage), or indirectly as government retirees etc. It is simply no solution to our problem, and in fact would makes things 10 times worse as the people who comprise of the biggest demographic group will never vote for entirely prudent sensible policies which might adversely affect their standards of living or their pension benefits or employment terms. It is completely obvious to most people who don't have their heads up their backsides and who are not trying to hoodwink voters with democratic voodoo.

Edited by JackCarter
Link to post
Share on other sites

That's far too simplistic.

 

 

What's far too simplistic? That I trash your facile ill-informed Californian tax argument with horrible realities? What of the other seven US states which have adopted direct democracy? Are they all bankrupt also?

 

Greece of course, as you have compared California to it, does not have direct democracy, which has clearly protected it from economic meltdown - not (but when it did it was arguably the most successful nation on earth).

 

Get off it Carter, the reality is that you are frightened by the concept of "ordinary people" having a say, but unfortunately you're struggling to come up with any valid arguments against it. If you don't like the idea then perhaps you should come up with some better propositions, we all need a saviour..

Link to post
Share on other sites

Get off it Carter, the reality is that you are frightened by the concept of "ordinary people" having a say, but unfortunately you're struggling to come up with any valid arguments against it. If you don't like the idea then perhaps you should come up with some better propositions, we all need a saviour..

Who is frightened by anything? That seems to have been an accusation that has been leveled a lot at people who disagree with your overly simplistic (and flawed) political message. As I said above; there are few 'ordinary' people here. By far the majority have some financial or contractual connection to Isle of Man government and the taxpayer. Those are exactly the people who should be given absolutely no additional powers or control over Manx politics as they're the very people who have brought us to this unsustainable position, and the very people who are doing still extremely well off the back of the taxpayer despite the fact our current economic model is unsustainable because of their pensions and their employment costs. Those people are not going to vote to change their pensions, or put up taxes, or to right-size government in order to create a sustainable economy as they are the very ones who have disproportionately benefitted and continue to benefit the most. As I said, and as California proves, turkeys do not vote for Xmas. You can't instill change through direct democracy when the biggest demographic group won't vote for any change that affects them.

 

Your proposals are so unbelievably naive and foolish it's hard to know where to start. You are simply a tool of the establishment which proposes to give government even more control than it has at the moment.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest problem with politics on the Isle of Man is getting the electorate interested enough to vote for anyone, let alone a particular candidate. The apathy and inertia is a product of failed and less than useless candidates/elected members who roll out the usual clichés and sound-bites which contain virtually zilch when it comes to drawing votes. Even those who do vote are rarely discerning enough to recognise who or what they are voting for. Levels of intelligence is also an issue; hence the success of Gawne, and poor old Peter Karran, the greatest and most prolific of granny-farmers who have been returned time after time. Manxies don't like change and are reluctant to address the most pressing of issues; they are reactive rather than proactive when it comes to the bigger picture. Voting should be compulsory for everyone eligible, even the disinterested and disillusioned. Otherwise, the apathy and disdain on which those standing rely on, will continue to furnish our political landscape with duffers and gravy suppers. Manx politics is a joke and a not very funny one at that.

Edited by quilp
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said Quilp which is why a candidate who says on his own website ..

 

"What do I know thats different to any other prospective candidate? Mainly I know that I dont know everything. I have strong political opinion on most subjects, however one thing I believe in more than anything else is that I should not have the power to wield those views over others even if I have been elected to represent them. To represent is not to dictate."

 

.. cannot, to me, be any effective solution. You don't fight apathy with more apathy, and you can't ask people who don't know what they want to tell you what they want. This Island needs firm strategies, and a firm direction to move forward with. It also needs to break the cycle of government looking after its own interests not enhance it by allowing anyone dependent on government to have an even bigger say through public polls.

Edited by JackCarter
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...