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It's a product of being completely fucked over & over & over again by first the English & then a bunch of greedy locals

And exactly why Manxies are bored with it all and feel that their votes will make no difference. Without any effective opposition there can be no oversight to protect the interests of the population or the future for the following generations. Democracy, my arse. It is a tokenocracy at best...

Edited by quilp
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I've said it before and I'll say it again... Skelly as CM would be the terminal breath of credible politics in the Isle of Man.

Shut up.

I hope he gets in if only to piss you off. Which it clearly would.

How would you propose to break the cycle of government looking after it's own interests?

A strong party political system that espouses strong policies on social and economic matters. It does not matter if they are left wing, right wing or centralist parties, but at least a party mentality would bind people to common goals and common ideas and concepts which then will create momentum and also create a focus on an end game or end position. It's exactly what the Manx establishment does not want. They deride party poltics every time the subject is raised but it is the only realistic saviour of the Islands political system.

Edited by JackCarter
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How would you propose to break the cycle of government looking after it's own interests?

A strong party political system that espouses strong policies on social and economic matters. It does not matter if they are left wing, right wing or centralist parties, but at least a party mentality would bind people to ideas and common concepts which then will create momentum and create a focus or end game. It's exactly what the Manx establishment does not want. They deride party poltics every time the subject is raised but it is the only realistic saviour of the Islands political system.

 

 

From my perspective that's the worst possible form of representative democracy - so corrupt that so-called representatives are denied the ability to represent the interests of their constituents by the party whip. Still, depending on which constituency you're in you may have the choice of voting for Labour or LibVan - enjoy.

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How would you propose to break the cycle of government looking after it's own interests?

 

A strong party political system that espouses strong policies on social and economic matters. It does not matter if they are left wing, right wing or centralist parties, but at least a party mentality would bind people to ideas and common concepts which then will create momentum and create a focus or end game. It's exactly what the Manx establishment does not want. They deride party poltics every time the subject is raised but it is the only realistic saviour of the Islands political system.

From my perspective that's the worst possible form of representative democracy - so corrupt that so-called representatives are denied the ability to represent the interests of their constituents by the party whip. Still, depending on which constituency you're in you may have the choice of voting for Labour or LibVan - enjoy.

That doesn't surprise me from someone who evidently believes that online no-responsibility mumbo-jumbo politics is the future.

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How would you propose to break the cycle of government looking after it's own interests?

 

A taxpayers' revolt. Stop paying taxes. Currently, most people's taxes are automatically deducted by their employer, so we need to push for a way to allow people to withhold their taxes on the grounds of freedom of expression and the principle of no taxation without representation.

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Ok, I was going to explain why the California reference is complete bollox, but it looks like we're all done. You've given absolutely no evidence as to why DD has caused any of the problems you've listed in California. In fact if you'd actually bothered to read the references you've given you would see that DD is not the problem - but you're not interested in context are you? The bottom line though is this - if it were really a problem for society they would change it - if they could. Nobody claimed DD is a panacea that will solve all social ills, it's just the best system for achieving best compromise - and it's not being used properly in America as your articles clearly explain, but you don't care about facts do you?

 

You want a strong party system? Great. News flash sparky, the two most popular politicians on the IOM have been trying for the last 30+ years. When you've got the next idea for how to make it happen we could all do with a laugh. You've basically clearly stated that the majority of people on the IOM should have their democratic rights reduced, and you're prepared to lie to them to get elected. Glad we cleared that up. See you at the polls.

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You want a strong party system? Great. News flash sparky, the two most popular politicians on the IOM have been trying for the last 30+ years. When you've got the next idea for how to make it happen we could all do with a laugh. You've basically clearly stated that the majority of people on the IOM should have their democratic rights reduced, and you're prepared to lie to them to get elected. Glad we cleared that up. See you at the polls.

You are unbelievable. You really think I'm in some sort of contest with you for election? You really are deluded to a tinfoil round the head level if you believe that. I'm sure claiming that allows you to publicly pretend in order to save face in front of people who have read your comments in this thread and think they're rubbish but I'm sorry i have been completely honest with you. I read your Facebook stuff and did some research as I was interested but after a few days i arrived at the conclusion that it was utter bullshit. I've not stated that the majority of the IOM should have their rights reduced either. But I am glad that you appear to agree that when we talk about 'the majority of the Isle of Man' we are actually talking about 'public sector employees, retirees, grant receivers, and contract recipients' rather than ordinary private sector working men and women on low wages. On that basis I have made my views clear in that they have a disproportionate influence already, and they are the turkeys who certainly will not vote for Xmas if we wish to make the Manx economy sustainable moving forward. I think your true agenda is being revealed here. You're only in this to help your friends in government achieve even more control over the Manx political system than they have already via the complete shameless illusion of direct democracy.

Edited by JackCarter
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By far the majority have some financial or contractual connection to Isle of Man government and the taxpayer. Those are exactly the people who should be given absolutely no additional powers or control over Manx politics...

It's your assumption (unproven), not mine. Either way the point remains. You're happy to lie to the majority in order to get elected so that you can make changes they don't want. Sounds great. And strangely familiar.

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By far the majority have some financial or contractual connection to Isle of Man government and the taxpayer. Those are exactly the people who should be given absolutely no additional powers or control over Manx politics...

It's your assumption (unproven), not mine. Either way the point remains. You're happy to lie to the majority in order to get elected so that you can make changes they don't want. Sounds great. And strangely familiar.

You're not that good at this internet stuff are you? I would have thought that you would be much better than that as you seem to be basing your whole future career on driving Internet opinion. The demographics of the IOM are clear as the last census, and several independent average earnings surveys, categorically prove. You are not setting out to represent the low paid Manx worker or those currently disenfranchised by Manx politics (as they are in the minority). You appear to be setting out to support the rights of the biggest demographic group; the Manx public sector and its wider connections. Above you have supplied more than enough evidence to suggest that you are merely a Manx establishment tool in order to attempt to provide even more influence over Manx politics for that disproportionate group of IOM residents than it has already.

 

I'm not lying to get elected as I have no intention of being elected, or even standing for election. That is a figment of your over active imagination. The only poll I'll be seeing in the near future is on a race day from the Grandstand. Thanks for the lying accusation though. It's not one I would have stooped low enough to level at you. But then again; I'm not a troll.

Edited by JackCarter
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By far the majority have some financial or contractual connection to Isle of Man government and the taxpayer. Those are exactly the people who should be given absolutely no additional powers or control over Manx politics...

It's your assumption (unproven), not mine. Either way the point remains. You're happy to lie to the majority in order to get elected so that you can make changes they don't want. Sounds great. And strangely familiar.

You're not that good at this internet stuff are you? I would have thought that you would be much better than that as you seem to be basing your whole future career on driving Internet opinion. The demographics of the IOM are clear as the last census, and several independent average earnings surveys, categorically prove. You are not setting out to represent the low paid Manx worker or those currently disenfranchised by Manx politics (as they are in the minority). You appear to be setting out to support the rights of the biggest demographic group; the Manx public sector and its wider connections. Above you have supplied more than enough evidence to suggest that you are merely a Manx establishment tool in order to attempt to provide even more influence over Manx politics for that disproportionate group of IOM residents than it has already.

 

I'm not lying to get elected as I have no intention of being elected, or even standing for election. That is a figment of your over active imagination. The only poll I'll be seeing in the near future is on a race day from the Grandstand. Thanks for the lying accusation though. It's not one I would have stooped low enough to level at you. But then again; I'm not a troll.

 

 

In that case Jack, maybe you can hypothesise why the "Manx Public Sector", or at least a number of senior figures within it, have been leading the argument against "Direct Democracy" or better public representation for the last 5 years? The Manx Public Sector is not enamoured by the idea.

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By far the majority have some financial or contractual connection to Isle of Man government and the taxpayer. Those are exactly the people who should be given absolutely no additional powers or control over Manx politics...

 

It's your assumption (unproven), not mine. Either way the point remains. You're happy to lie to the majority in order to get elected so that you can make changes they don't want. Sounds great. And strangely familiar.

You're not that good at this internet stuff are you? I would have thought that you would be much better than that as you seem to be basing your whole future career on driving Internet opinion. The demographics of the IOM are clear as the last census, and several independent average earnings surveys, categorically prove. You are not setting out to represent the low paid Manx worker or those currently disenfranchised by Manx politics (as they are in the minority). You appear to be setting out to support the rights of the biggest demographic group; the Manx public sector and its wider connections. Above you have supplied more than enough evidence to suggest that you are merely a Manx establishment tool in order to attempt to provide even more influence over Manx politics for that disproportionate group of IOM residents than it has already.

I'm not lying to get elected as I have no intention of being elected, or even standing for election. That is a figment of your over active imagination. The only poll I'll be seeing in the near future is on a race day from the Grandstand. Thanks for the lying accusation though. It's not one I would have stooped low enough to level at you. But then again; I'm not a troll.

In that case Jack, maybe you can hypothesise why the "Manx Public Sector", or at least a number of senior figures within it, have been leading the argument against "Direct Democracy" or better public representation for the last 5 years? The Manx Public Sector is not enamoured by the idea.

Are you Hamptons minder?

 

I can't second guess what senior figures in government chose to do. But they aren't very clever some of them. I only have your word that they don't support it. Note that I have not accused anyone of lying at all. Just that it's only you saying that government don't support it all.

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It's a point of principle not a direct accusation - neither of us knows if the person we think we're having this conversation with is actually who we think it is. I covered this in my first post, please keep up at the back. Whether you're standing or not the point still remains.

 

You feel the majority group is the problem on the IOM and so you're happy with a democratic system in which the individual has to lie to the majority in order to gain power - in order to do the things a tiny minority of people feel are best for the majority. I don't agree. I'm offering people a choice which essentially boils down to this point. I won't count on your vote. Thanks for your input.

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You feel the majority group is the problem on the IOM and so you're happy with a democratic system in which the individual has to lie to the majority in order to gain power - in order to do the things a tiny minority of people feel are best for the majority. I don't agree. I'm offering people a choice which essentially boils down to this point. I won't count on your vote. Thanks for your input.

You're very good at claiming a false moral high ground aren't you? Which candidates are lying to get in? Do think they are specifically knocking on doors and lying to people's faces to get elected? That's placing yourself on a moral pedestal against every other candidate standing and makes you genuinely sound deluded.

 

So you believe that when you say something like "One thing I believe in more than anything else is that I should not have the power to wield those views over others even if I have been elected to represent them. To represent is not to dictate." on your website that's being more honest than anyone else? It's only not lying as its promising people absolutely NOTHING whatsoever. You're offering to take £45k a year for doing NOTHING substantiative at all. But you think making that clear somehow makes you more honest than anyone else? Take those rose tinted glasses off as they're broken.

 

Yes it's the majority self interest that is the real problem on the IOM and largely the reason why nobody votes. The wider public sector has been looking after itself on taxpayer cash for years and has created a completely unsustainable economy. Direct democracy would hand even more power over to that majority group. It would also ensure that the majority, like in California, would vote for nothing that might adversely affect them. So debts and pension liabilities would just get bigger quicker and there would be no reform undertaken at all. It's a completely stupid concept the way our society is constructed.

Edited by JackCarter
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Democracy, as we seem to imagine it, is not without its foibles. People have differing ideals as to what democracy means to them. An argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

Edited by quilp
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Democracy, as we seem to imagine it is not without its foibles and the best argument against it is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter.

A prime example being Brexit Quilp. Let the right wing racists run everything into the ground just because they want to cut off the nations nose to spite it's face as they don't want Poles setting up shops on their high streets. You can also see how divisive and destructive that's been for the UK in almost splitting the country and setting huge groups of people off against each other. Not to mention the murder of an MP durning the whole process. The economy and the markets are only holding up at the moment as nobody actually believes it's going to happen.

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