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Gay Pardons


Gee Cee
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I thought this thread was about the Isle of Man not over there.

 

I dont think the argument is any different.

Allen Bell said there had been suicides but there doesnt seem to be much available in the public domain.

There are several I know of. One was arrested in a big police surveillance operation. He had custody of his child. Police told him ( days before duty advocates and representation at Police Station interviews ) that they would be informing child's mother and Social Services. He took his life within hours of being released from the police station.

 

For things like that it's appropriate that the police should apologise too.

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This poor man was convicted of a sexual offence, described as buggery, over half a century ago.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/15/buggery-criminal-record

 

The offence for which he was convicted is no longer a crime but he still has to declare it in relation to CRC checks for voluntary work he wants to undertake.

 

His case is a strong argument for granting pardons to those convicted of sexual offences which are no longer crimes and whom are still alive.

 

However, not everyone agrees that all historical crimes of this nature should be pardoned.

 

Gay rights campaigner, Matt Houlbrook, doesnt believe pardons should be granted posthumously.

 

Arguing this controversial part of our history should be remembered, not buried, he believes granting such pardons may be good politics but is certainly bad history.

 

https://tricksterprince.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/pardoning-alan-turing-might-be-good-politics-but-its-certainly-bad-history/

 

An interesting point of view.

 

I thought this thread was about the Isle of Man not over there.

The arguments, principles and situation are identical. See my posts above.

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I thought this thread was about the Isle of Man not over there.

I dont think the argument is any different.

Allen Bell said there had been suicides but there doesnt seem to be much available in the public domain.

There are several I know of. One was arrested in a big police surveillance operation. He had custody of his child. Police told him ( days before duty advocates and representation at Police Station interviews ) that they would be informing child's mother and Social Services. He took his life within hours of being released from the police station.

For things like that it's appropriate that the police should apologise too.

I'd agree there certainly were one or two who took that action once the establishment threatened they'd be exposed.

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When I first met Emre while on holiday I told him the Isle of Man was different and people here are more open minded about people like us

 

Where do you go on holiday, Nigeria?

 

 

Emre and I met in Ibiza and yes Ronnie he is Turkish. What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't matter what race or country you're from, people are people at the end of the day and just want to be happy. I can't believe anyone would begrudge a person because of where they were born or who their parents were. I don't mean to scare you but you do realise we're all descended from African migrants right?

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If the individuals were subsequently brought before the courts for any offence, then it still seems right and proper that all their previous offences be taken into account before sentencing. A pardon would presumablt prevent this from happeneing.

But, surely, if what we are saying is that the original offence you have been charged with should never have been an offence, then it shouldn't be taken into account in subsequent sentencing?

 

I would be concerned if the pardon was not applied to specific offences but given generally. For example, if someone was found guilty of buggering an underage boy, it is not the homosexuality that is the issue, but the sexual activity with someone below the age of consent, just as would be the case of heterosexual activity with an underage girl.

 

It is going to have be applied after a case by case review, I suppose, and that is going to be costly. But I agree wholeheartedly with the principle.

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I was in total ignorance of people still having to declare their 'guilt' of being homosexual when applying for work etc.

 

Why wasn't this dealt with when the law was changed?

 

A pardon sounds rather patronising but necessary and privately done. An apology to accompany it would be good too.

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I'm as Manx as the hills and I'm not familiar with any case. I don't dispute that there are any, just don't know of any. Maybe "if you are Manx" is stretching it. Maybe you meant "if you are Manx and a geriatric"?

 

 

This is totally off topic but I'm also intrigued by the phrase "as Manx as the hills". How does one quantify and qualify that? Is it a feeling, is it family background, it is belief or is it something else?

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This is totally off topic but I'm also intrigued by the phrase "as Manx as the hills". How does one quantify and qualify that? Is it a feeling, is it family background, it is belief or is it something else?

I think one can also qualify by means of a sufficient number of MF userids that profess manxness.

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I'm all for social justice and equality but isn't this really just an excuse for lawyers to cash in? It's going to be very expensive to administer all these retrospective pardons on a case by case basis. The same people who are calling for this will next week be moaning about no money for young people's health. People still don't appear to have figured out that we have finite resources.

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I was in total ignorance of people still having to declare their 'guilt' of being homosexual when applying for work etc.

Heard only last week that someone applying for a gov job had to state their sexual orientation on the application form. Despite being heterosexual they refused to fill in that question which no doubt HR will conclude as 'trouble'.

 

Back to the general thread, I instinctively thought this objectionable part of our history was best forgotten but then I realised that I only thought that because it hadn't affected me. Having considered it more, I believe the record of all previous such past offences that are now legal should revised.

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I was in total ignorance of people still having to declare their 'guilt' of being homosexual when applying for work etc.

 

Why wasn't this dealt with when the law was changed?

 

A pardon sounds rather patronising but necessary and privately done. An apology to accompany it would be good too.

 

You can change the law so it's excluded as having to be declared. There's no need for all this expensive pardoning stuff, which I agree is patronising.

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I was in total ignorance of people still having to declare their 'guilt' of being homosexual when applying for work etc.

Heard only last week that someone applying for a gov job had to state their sexual orientation on the application form. Despite being heterosexual they refused to fill in that question which no doubt HR will conclude as 'trouble'.

 

That part of the form is used purely by HR for estimating figures. The person interviewing you or assessing your application will never even see that part of the form. It also asks for your ethnic background, gender, age group, nationality, and whether you have any disabilities.

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I'm as Manx as the hills and I'm not familiar with any case. I don't dispute that there are any, just don't know of any. Maybe "if you are Manx" is stretching it. Maybe you meant "if you are Manx and a geriatric"?

 

This is totally off topic but I'm also intrigued by the phrase "as Manx as the hills". How does one quantify and qualify that? Is it a feeling, is it family background, it is belief or is it something else?

Start a thread on it and find out.

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I'm as Manx as the hills and I'm not familiar with any case. I don't dispute that there are any, just don't know of any. Maybe "if you are Manx" is stretching it. Maybe you meant "if you are Manx and a geriatric"?

 

This is totally off topic but I'm also intrigued by the phrase "as Manx as the hills". How does one quantify and qualify that? Is it a feeling, is it family background, it is belief or is it something else?

Start a thread on it and find out.

 

 

Fair enough.

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I actually agree with the pardon. They have a criminal record, even if spent, that arose from bigotry and small mindedness.

 

I do not know what you plan by way of "gay pardons" on the Isle of Man but the following link seems to indicate that the proposed idea in the UK is "posthumous pardons" pre 1967 with growing pressure to pardon just about everybody else...

 

This goes back to the World War Two code breaker etc Alan Turin who I think was offered prison or chemical castration and chose the latter. This to some extent is similar to the First War soldiers who were shot for desertion etc when today some but maybe not all would be taken out of the line for treatment being "shell shocked" etc...

 

Personally I think one cannot turn back the clock as that was the law at the time...But it is good for votes and fame and no harm done if you offer pardons to the dead!

 

In my schooldays (at a state school in the 1960s) boys and some girls were caned across the hands and buttocks sometimes being held down over a desk. Most teachers hit boys with PT slipper and some had wooden bats, rubber bunsen burner tubing and springy steel rods to hit you with. Others cracked your knuckles with a metal edged boxwood ruler and one would slam the desk lid shut on your hands...

 

Now that form of corporal punishment (aka inhumane and degrading under Human Rights convention/law) has gone along with the "cat" and the "birch"...

 

So let us have pardons and apologies for all the birchings and school beatings...It can be done...Down on my manor the Essex Record Office holds all the records of official school corporal punishment which had to be kept written in "the Black Book" for HMI inspection...These books are sealed for 100 years or more..

 

Well I think all those 11-15 year old children who were beaten should be forgiven and their names removed from the books! And apology given for all the unofficial beatings done in the classroom..

 

It was lawful to beat kids then. I fact they were beating children at my old school after it was made illegal for the State to beat you and that caught up with the Isle of Man in time. Now it is not lawful to officially beat kids or adults...Where do you draw the line?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiZgK7X-bvPAhVRGsAKHY_CCQ4QFggyMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-37436417&usg=AFQjCNEe22IyX8t90b06wtPyPerVI42JEQ&sig2=4CAsJSqOywxEPu_kUrk-7g

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