Jump to content

Incest


Gee Cee
 Share

Recommended Posts

A few days ago I started a thread about Gay Pardons. That has generated a lot of interesting discussion.

 

I have been a little surprised at how very tolerant everyone is. The feeling of many seems to be that consenting adults should be free to do whatever they want, providing it is in private and children are not exposed to anything too controversial.

 

This leads me to wonder just how far this tolerance goes. So I would like to ask a question ...

 

Should we allow incest?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What degrees of relationship are you talking about, full bloodline, half blood line, step relationships?

 

Different societies and different faiths and different sects or denominations within those faiths proscribe differently.

 

What's the science for what is genetically "safe" - and what is the social model for what is necessary to maintain family structure and order?

 

And llap you may be being naive, the birth certificates may not tell the truth. In rural communities sibling and father daughter incest appears to have not been uncommon. The pregnancy of the young girl was hidden, and once the baby arrived it was registered as the child of the grandmother and grandfather father.

 

And that's not racist, or bigoted its fact that modern genetics and DNA analysis confirms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John - my thinking was along the following lines ...

 

a) Many of the current laws regarding incest are probably derived from the Bible. (As I suspect were the laws regarding homosexuality.)

 

b) We now seem to be living in a post-Christian era. So just as in the case of homosexuality, views on what is acceptable have changed.

 

c) We now have safe contraceptives available. So the genetic implications for children born of incest are very different to those when the current laws were enacted.

 

Is now the time to allow siblings, parents and their adult children, to engage in a sexual free for all?

 

If so, should there be pardons for those convicted of incest?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And llap you may be being naive, the birth certificates may not tell the truth. In rural communities sibling and father daughter incest appears to have not been uncommon. The pregnancy of the young girl was hidden, and once the baby arrived it was registered as the child of the grandmother and grandfather father.

 

And that's not racist, or bigoted its fact that modern genetics and DNA analysis confirms.

 

John, I've got six hundred years of written records for both sides of my family on the Isle of Man. There are no funny gaps, pregnancy dates, or anything that would suggest any incest at any point; what we have is generation after generation of a male and female who are not related to each other becoming married and having children.

 

What you say of rural communities might be true, but the Isle of Man isn't a standard generic "rural community" like some small village in a remote area of Pennsylvania or middle England. It's an island. It isn't even a remote island like, say, some island up the north of Scotland. For over a thousand years, the Isle of Man has a been a maritime centre and this is certainly reflected in the "breeding" interactions that I see in my family tree. There was a continuous stream of new DNA being brought into the family from the surrounding areas of England and Ireland and this wasn't just a one-way thing where men were going off to these places and bringing women back, but, rather, English or Irish families were moving here and they would marry with the locals.

 

That being said, I don't know what other people's families get up to in weird places around the island, but my DNA is very diverse and fresh!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GC I think you are missing my point by trying to be controversial.

 

There are proscribed degrees of relationship in religious texts, both by blood and social affinity.

 

In the Christian faith there are many different interpretations by Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant denominations.

 

What is incestuous varies from country to country and there are often significant differences between prohibited degrees for marriage and when sex is illegal due to the closeness of relationships.

 

Quite a number of close relationships can't marry but can have sex legally.

 

As they ( Dickens ) say, the law is a ass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

And llap you may be being naive, the birth certificates may not tell the truth. In rural communities sibling and father daughter incest appears to have not been uncommon. The pregnancy of the young girl was hidden, and once the baby arrived it was registered as the child of the grandmother and grandfather father.

 

And that's not racist, or bigoted its fact that modern genetics and DNA analysis confirms.

 

John, I've got six hundred years of written records for both sides of my family on the Isle of Man. There are no funny gaps, pregnancy dates, or anything that would suggest any incest at any point; what we have is generation after generation of a male and female who are not related to each other becoming married and having children.

 

What you say of rural communities might be true, but the Isle of Man isn't a standard generic "rural community" like some small village in a remote area of Pennsylvania or middle England. It's an island. It isn't even a remote island like, say, some island up the north of Scotland. For over a thousand years, the Isle of Man has a been a maritime centre and this is certainly reflected in the "breeding" interactions that I see in my family tree. There was a continuous stream of new DNA being brought into the family from the surrounding areas of England and Ireland and this wasn't just a one-way thing where men were going off to these places and bringing women back, but, rather, English or Irish families were moving here and they would marry with the locals.

 

That being said, I don't know what other people's families get up to in weird places around the island, but my DNA is very diverse and fresh!

 

 

 

You said in another recent thread that your grandmother was scouse?

 

 

 

My grandmother was a scouser. Screw you for your racism.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure I'm seeing any contradiction, mojomonkey? I said there's been plenty of breeding with women of the surrounding countries. The six centuries figure refers to direct patrilineal line and maternal direct patrilineal line.

Edited by llap
Link to comment
Share on other sites

John - my thinking was along the following lines ...

 

a) Many of the current laws regarding incest are probably derived from the Bible. (As I suspect were the laws regarding homosexuality.)

 

Answer. There was no state law against gay sex in England or the Isle of Man before reformation. In England the offence was brought in by Henry VIII and used to make false allegations against the heads of monastic institutions and confiscate their property. That was in the 1530's. The IOM didn't legislate until the 1680's. The legislation covered one act only. In the folk devil and moral panic atmosphere post the Oscar Wilde Marquess of Queensberry defamation trial the offence of gross indecency was introduced to cover what had never been a Christian religious or common law or statutory offence until 1895. The vast majority of "in private " convictions between 1895 and 1967 were for gross indecency. An artificial offence. Although "in public offences", such as sexual contact in public loos, were occasionally charged as gross indecency they were mainly charged under local council by laws. The reason was simple, gross indecency was a jury trial offence and hard to prove whereas the by law offences were summary, usually before a stipendiary magistrate who would be more likely to believe the police and convict. From that grew the distasteful business of using pretty police to entrap.

 

b) We now seem to be living in a post-Christian era. So just as in the case of homosexuality, views on what is acceptable have changed.

 

Answer. As I hope I've demonstrated the majority of gay convictions for 68 years in England and 90 years in IOM had no real Christian context or history. Likewise incest. Certain core restrictions have biblical basis, but most are layered by denomination or country. They are mainly social, based on affinity, not consanguinity..

 

c) We now have safe contraceptives available. So the genetic implications for children born of incest are very different to those when the current laws were enacted.

 

Answer. The restrictions based on affinity rather than consanguinity are social rather than genetic. So contraception seems irrelevant.

 

Is now the time to allow siblings, parents and their adult children, to engage in a sexual free for all?

 

Answer. Is that what you are proposing?

 

If so, should there be pardons for those convicted of incest?

 

It's a very rare conviction. Much rarer than for gross indecency in the shortish that period it was illegal,

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...