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So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

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6 hours ago, woolley said:

Why would it not have been? There is this sickening attitude of "poor us, we are hopeless without the EU". It's all fabrication and it's no accident. It's an attitude nurtured by the centrists to emasculate the nation states. Anyone who demurs is immediately and lazily accused of being an insular little Englander. Sovereignty is not a thing of the 1970s. It is for all times and eventualities. The present political situation on the continent is transitory. It is not a settlement in perpetuity, thank goodness.

All political situations, nation states, alliances, trading blocs, and country boundaries, are transitory, and not settled in perpetuity. That’s at international, and internal levels.

Yes, that’s a good thing.

But it doesn’t support your sovereignty, or loss thereof, argument. Indeed it contradicts it.

That being said we live in a representative democracy. Where we elect people to do what’s best for the country. Not what the electorate, or a political party, or a section of the electorate, shouts loudest for. If we did the world would be a sadder, more sorry, more blood thirsty, place. Demagogues and populists would reign.

Is that a good idea?

Now tell us again, with examples, what we get back, practically, from the illusory return of sovereignty.

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17 minutes ago, John Wright said:

All political situations, nation states, alliances, trading blocs, and country boundaries, are transitory, and not settled in perpetuity. That’s at international, and internal levels.  OBVIOUSLY AGREE.

Yes, that’s a good thing.

But it doesn’t support your sovereignty, or loss thereof, argument. Indeed it contradicts it. DISAGREE. THE NATION STATE HAS SUSTAINED US FOR 300 YEARS AND MORE. IT IS PRECIOUS TO OUR WELLBEING AND SAFETY. ANYTHING THAT ERODES IT AND ITS INSTITUTIONS IS DANGEROUS.

That being said we live in a representative democracy. Where we elect people to do what’s best for the country. Not what the electorate, or a political party, or a section of the electorate, shouts loudest for. If we did the world would be a sadder, more sorry, more blood thirsty, place. Demagogues and populists would reign. AGREE. EXCEPT THAT THE WORLD IS A BLOODTHIRSTY PLACE AND THIS IS WHAT WE TEND TO LOSE SIGHT OF IN CASTING AWAY OUR HARD WON FREEDOMS TO BE SUBSUMED INTO SOME PAN-CONTINENTAL PUTATIVE GOVERNMENT.

Is that a good idea? OBVIOUSLY NOT. NOT OF ANY PERSUASION THOUGH, NOT JUST THE ONES WITH IDEAS YOU HAPPEN TO DISLIKE.

Now tell us again, with examples, what we get back, practically, from the illusory return of sovereignty. I DON'T ACCEPT THE FLAWED BASIS OF THE LOADED QUESTION. SOVEREIGNTY IS NOT ILLUSORY AND THAT IS WHAT WE GET BACK.

 

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54 minutes ago, woolley said:

. I DON'T ACCEPT THE FLAWED BASIS OF THE LOADED QUESTION.   IS NOT ILLUSORY AND THAT IS WHAT WE GET BACK.

I don't accept the bobbing and weaving to avoid answering the question......

Edited by P.K.
Losing the will to live.....

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This facts v feelings debate reminds me of a science v religion debate. One side cannot understand why the other cannot form a rational fact based opinion, the other cannot understand why the other is even bothering to weigh up evidence because, to them, the truth is obvious. 

 

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What price this new sovereignty emotion if the USA starts telling us what to do?

Y'know like we'll give you a biscuit because we like you (unlike "those French") . If you don't deal with Huawei we'll give you a packet of biscuits. However If you adopt our food and agricultural standards, you can have a tin of biscuits.

Yep, "take back control"  :rolleyes:

 

PS Has anyone else noticed the "take control" meme now seems obligatory in a very broad range of advertising.

Edited by ballaughbiker

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I wonder if there’s a shifty insurance salesman anywhere rubbing his hands together and organising more ‘sovereignty’ memes to aim at gullible pensioners? 

 

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On 8/30/2017 at 10:11 AM, woolley said:

Sovereignty and self-determination of nations is the key to prosperity

This is a bold statement. So the following is an attempt to remove the smoke and mirrors around what the "loss of sovereignty" from the UK to the EU means in real terms like GDP.

UK joins the EU in 1973. The current situation in GDP measured in US$M:

1973

1    United States   13,698,000
2    Japan                  4,124,896
3    Germany              3,855,118
4    France                  2,625,794
5    UK                         1,813,326
6    Italy                       1,690,840
7    China                    1,367,698
8    Canada                 1,289,431
9    India                         852,460
10    Australia                840,995

Now:

2018

1     United States    20,494,050
2     China                  13,407,398
3     Japan                   4,971,929
4     Germany              4,000,386
5     UK                         2,828,644
6     France                  2,775,252
7     India                      2,716,746
8     Italy                        2,072,201
9     Brazil                     1,868,184
10     Canada               1,711,387

Of course the good news bit is that France has slipped from fourth to sixth and Germany keeps powering along using the sneaky Teutonic trick of making decent stuff folks want to buy. As expected the emergent nations of China, India and Brazil are very much starting to make their presence felt. Amazing what can change in 45 years.

Frankly I don't see how anyone could possible claim that the UK hasn't done OK for itself in the EU. Of course, all the usual suspects will be bleating "You don't know if it might have done just as well outside of the EU or even better!" because they have nowhere else to go....

Trump is obviously a big fan of Brexit. Do you know why? The following list holds a little clue, known as a cluette, as to the reason for this:

2018

1     United States    20,494,050
2     EU                        18,750,052
3     China                  13,407,398
4     Japan                   4,971,929
5     Germany              4,000,386
6     UK                         2,828,644
7     France                  2,775,252
8     India                      2,716,746
9     Italy                        2,072,201
10   Brazil                     1,868,184

 

Currently the US has only one real rival for trade dominance and that is the much maligned EU. A US ambassador explained it that they usually just send out a trade agreement and tell the hopefuls to sign it. With the EU they have to treat them as equals.

I know Trump was playing to his US big-business driven script (he can't operate any other way) but I suspect playing the NHS card was a retrograde step.....

Just to end on a happy note:

Brexit_Reality.jpg.3593e11887e2b5e4738d763096488120.jpg

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Is Mr Farage still refusing to discuss his election funding with the EU?

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On 6/3/2019 at 6:57 PM, P.K. said:

I don't accept the bobbing and weaving to avoid answering the question......

What else can one do when the question is akin to: "When did you stop beating your wife?" It makes assumptions I fundamentally disagree with, i.e sovereignty is illusory, ergo it is unanswerable.

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On 6/3/2019 at 11:49 PM, Freggyragh said:

This facts v feelings debate reminds me of a science v religion debate. One side cannot understand why the other cannot form a rational fact based opinion, the other cannot understand why the other is even bothering to weigh up evidence because, to them, the truth is obvious. 

 

The above is the conceit of the Europhile argument. One side only considers one aspect of a massive issue, being trade, and calls this rationality. The other side views the issue in the round in the full context of history, the way things are heading and what is likely to happen in the future. One side plows on with eyes closed preferring to maintain what it fondly believes is an unchanging status quo while the other is screaming "No. Don't go there." To BOTH the truth is obvious and that is the root of the standoff.

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15 minutes ago, woolley said:

The above is the conceit of the Europhile argument. One side only considers one aspect of a massive issue, being trade, and calls this rationality. The other side views the issue in the round in the full context of history, the way things are heading and what is likely to happen in the future. One side plows on with eyes closed preferring to maintain what it fondly believes is an unchanging status quo while the other is screaming "No. Don't go there." To BOTH the truth is obvious and that is the root of the standoff.

I prefer  to look at the £numbers. It's called "Management By Fact" you know....

@woolley You will see your post I previously quoted was from several years ago. I had an hour or so to spare (unlike some on here I don't spend all day staring at a screen pretending to work...) so I searched back trying to find where you had tried to explain the myth of UK "lost" sovereignty. Unfortunately, despite me applying due diligence, I failed to find it. 

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The above is the conceit of the Europhile argument

Prevention is good but taking the most extreme measure possible to dodge a theoretical problem at an unspecified point in the future seems an unnecessary gamble we will all have to risk.

I certainly don't apply this to all leavers but many have approached leaving and voted accordingly with next to no consideration of the consequences. The way they don't want to know about such consequences is like a religious person not wanting to seek anything that might question their faith. Pointing this out is hardly conceit but forcing a continuation in the direction we are going, given the evidence we now have, might well be.

Many leavers are hoping for the best based on nothing but faith. It might just work if the three ducks line up but I think they wouldn't bet their house on it.

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16 minutes ago, P.K. said:

I prefer  to look at the £numbers. It's called "Management By Fact" you know....

@woolley You will see your post I previously quoted was from several years ago. I had an hour or so to spare (unlike some on here I don't spend all day staring at a screen pretending to work...) so I searched back trying to find where you had tried to explain the myth of UK "lost" sovereignty. Unfortunately, despite me applying due diligence, I failed to find it. 

An hour would be nowhere near long enough to analyse this. If you were looking for a myth then there isn't one. (Methinks he prostesteth too much regarding the time spent on here, by the way.)

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