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So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

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Posted (edited)

So, here we have a culture formed by waves of immigration from Europe to add to the native Welsh, first from Ireland and France, then from Italy (and all areas under Rome, including North Africa and the Middle East), Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Holland, Germany and Belgium, then from Spain, Greece, Italy, Germany, Poland, , Central Europe (Roma) and France again (Huguenot refugees). By the time Disraeli (descended from Sephardic Jews from Spain and Italy) was PM there was mass immigration from Ireland, Belgium and Germany. Before WW2 there were refugees from the Basque Country and during WW2 and the postwar era there was further immigration from Italy, Poland, Germany, Czechia and Hungary, and later, from Malta, Cyprus, Poland and France. You could also talk about immigration from North America and Caribbean, South America, Africa, China, the Indian Sub-Continent as well, but the numbers are far less, and Woolley was talking  about a culture formed over a thousand years. Whatever you think ‘Britishness’ is, it is very definitely European in all aspects; religious, political, fashionable, industrial, musical, military, design, ethical and philosophical. Always has been, always will be.

Edited by Freggyragh

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58 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

So, here we have a culture formed by waves of immigration from Europe to add to the native Welsh, first from Ireland and France, then from Italy (and all areas under Rome, including North Africa and the Middle East), Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Holland, Germany and Belgium, then from Spain, Greece, Italy, Germany, Poland, , Central Europe (Roma) and France again (Huguenot refugees). By the time Disraeli (descended from Sephardic Jews from Spain and Italy) was PM there was mass immigration from Ireland, Belgium and Germany. Before WW2 there were refugees from the Basque Country and during WW2 and the postwar era there was further immigration from Italy, Poland, Germany, Czechia and Hungary, and later, from Malta, Cyprus, Poland and France. You could also talk about immigration from North America and Caribbean, South America, Africa, China, the Indian Sub-Continent as well, but the numbers are far less, and Woolley was talking  about a culture formed over a thousand years. Whatever you think ‘Britishness’ is, it is very definitely European in all aspects; religious, political, fashionable, industrial, musical, military, design, ethical and philosophical. Always has been, always will be.

Careful now.

If you start to pick apart the brexit "arguments" you will be branded a member of the "liberal elite" sneering at the proles and standing in the way of "their" brexit. Well, that's the tactic the brexiteers use to keep their troops on side. They can't play the ball so they have to play the man.

I can understand the disaffection of folks with politics. At one point the Eton educated "call me Dave" (laughable!) had some fourteen millionaires on his front bench. After years of austerity courtesy of Gideon Osborne people were looking for a way out and they've been sold Brexit as the yellow brick road to the sunny uplands.

The other day a state school educated ex-barmaid, charity worker and psychiatric nurse was outed as a member of this "sneering liberal elite" when, lets face it, you can't possibly be less elitist than a barmaid! But it doesn't matter to those manipulating the disaffected and just plain fed up with the whole farrago. As long as they can portray themselves as being under attack from this "liberal elite" they'll keep the whole deception going in the direction that's best for their personal ambition...

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On 6/15/2019 at 10:10 AM, Freggyragh said:

So, here we have a culture formed by waves of immigration from Europe to add to the native Welsh, first from Ireland and France, then from Italy (and all areas under Rome, including North Africa and the Middle East), Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Holland, Germany and Belgium, then from Spain, Greece, Italy, Germany, Poland, , Central Europe (Roma) and France again (Huguenot refugees). By the time Disraeli (descended from Sephardic Jews from Spain and Italy) was PM there was mass immigration from Ireland, Belgium and Germany. Before WW2 there were refugees from the Basque Country and during WW2 and the postwar era there was further immigration from Italy, Poland, Germany, Czechia and Hungary, and later, from Malta, Cyprus, Poland and France. You could also talk about immigration from North America and Caribbean, South America, Africa, China, the Indian Sub-Continent as well, but the numbers are far less, and Woolley was talking  about a culture formed over a thousand years. Whatever you think ‘Britishness’ is, it is very definitely European in all aspects; religious, political, fashionable, industrial, musical, military, design, ethical and philosophical. Always has been, always will be.

This minor subplot to the thread arose when Manxman questioned whether the UK has any more legitimacy to survive as a union than does the EU. My answers were posted entirely in that context and I persist in my assertion that the population of the British Islands (present day UK & Ireland) are a people with an almost homogenous cohesion that embraces many, many generations. It has been nurtured through their inter-island travel, trading, intermarriage (even during internecine warring) and many other common bonds for over a millennium. The come lately EU, by contrast, stretches across a continent of disparate peoples with far less in common than have the British. Hardly surprising given the geopolitical overreach of the project.

There was little disruption to the homogeneity of the population of the British Isles from outside prior to WW2. However we identify personally, most of us have traceable connections to other parts of the islands, in my own case England, Ireland and Scotland. We have far more that unites us than divides us. The very idea, for instance, that Scotland would more appropriately be outside the UK and in the EU is risible, flying in the face of all logic. It is political opportunism of the worst kind, similar to that of the frightful Johnson who, it should not be forgotten, spent a week agonising over whether supporting Leave or Remain would better further the interests of Boris himself. Whatever happened to conviction politics?

It is undeniable that there has been some immigration over the centuries from all of the places you mention and elsewhere, no doubt. From all over the globe in fact, particularly from the empire, but the numbers were absolutely minimal until the mid 20th century, and easily assimilated into the indigenous population. Not waves of immigration at all, as you would have us believe, but perhaps, by the same analogy, the gentle murmur of occasional wavelets. Even the Huguenots, who are often trotted out as proof positive that Britain has forever been a destination for mass immigration, only arrived at an average of a thousand a year over 40-50 years or so. Correcting for the difference in population, a factor of about eight between 1700 and now, would give a pro-rata inflow of about 8-10,000 a year in today’s terms for comparison, which is vanishingly small. (2018 net immigration was 258,000 and it’s been far higher in recent years – 30 times greater than the height of the Huguenot arrivals based on today's population level!). The number of Jews in Britain as late as the last quarter of the 19th century was less than 50,000. The Basques and the others: A mere handful. The much vaunted melting pot throughout the centuries changing and moulding Britain is a carefully crafted illusion. Within a couple of generations such limited numbers of incomers as there were had themselves acquired and, for the most part, gladly embraced Britishness.

I agree that none of this detracts from the fact that the distinctive – and they are distinctive - British culture and characteristics are intrinsically rooted in various European influences from way, way back before they acquired their uniqueness. It is self-evidently so, but that was not the question posed about the legitimacy of the respective unions. The salient point is that the UK is bonded and bulwarked by a British culture which has grown and flourished in these islands. It has no single EU-wide parallel.

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The English language isn’t ‘British’ (aka Welsh) it’s a mixture of French and German. The Church of England isn’t a British Church (that would be Druidism or the Celtic Church)  it is a German / Swiss offshoot of an Italian church. The English Royal Family probably have a bit of ‘British’ blood, but probably more German, Dutch and French. England was in a Union with parts of France after 1066 for nearly 500 years. The United Kingdom has only existed for 312 years, 218 if you include the North of Ireland. The Bill of Rights was enacted by a Parliament presided over by a Dutch king. The Act of Union was enforced by s succession of German monarchs. This ‘British’ exceptionality you imagine is bollocks. Britain, in particular, England, is European to the core. 

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13 hours ago, woolley said:

This minor subplot to the thread arose when Manxman questioned whether the UK has any more legitimacy to survive as a union than does the EU. My answers were posted entirely in that context and I persist in my assertion that the population of the British Islands (present day UK & Ireland) are a people with an almost homogenous cohesion that embraces many, many generations. It has been nurtured through their inter-island travel, trading, intermarriage (even during internecine warring) and many other common bonds for over a millennium. The come lately EU, by contrast, stretches across a continent of disparate peoples with far less in common than have the British. Hardly surprising given the geopolitical overreach of the project..

I agree that the EU is a modern construct, however,  the European people are not.

I stand by my assertion that the "British" are not as isolated and homogeneous as you make out.

I stand by my assertion that if your argument is sovereignty then the nations which make up the UK should also have a right to a sovereign Government rather than being ruled over by Westminster.

I find it interesting that many who campaigned against Scotland leaving the UK also campaigned for the UK to leave the EU. 

Don't even get me started on those who said that if Scotland left the UK it would have to leave the EU which was not in its interests...

There is so much hypocrisy and personal power plays going on that the interests of the general population are being forgotten and trampled on.

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On 6/14/2019 at 2:26 PM, RIchard Britten said:

And how would you define this "distinct" British Identity?  Should ask someone who live in London, Birmingham, St Ives or York?  Maybe someone in their 20's, 50's or 80's?  Someone Caucasian, Black or Asian?  Someone who grew up on a council estate, in the suburbs or in Kensington?

 

@woolley care to respond to my question in relation to your assertion?

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On 6/17/2019 at 10:11 PM, Freggyragh said:

The English language isn’t ‘British’ (aka Welsh) it’s a mixture of French and German. The Church of England isn’t a British Church (that would be Druidism or the Celtic Church)  it is a German / Swiss offshoot of an Italian church. The English Royal Family probably have a bit of ‘British’ blood, but probably more German, Dutch and French. England was in a Union with parts of France after 1066 for nearly 500 years. The United Kingdom has only existed for 312 years, 218 if you include the North of Ireland. The Bill of Rights was enacted by a Parliament presided over by a Dutch king. The Act of Union was enforced by s succession of German monarchs. This ‘British’ exceptionality you imagine is bollocks. Britain, in particular, England, is European to the core. 

You don’t seem to realise that the more aspects you list to attempt to knock it down, the more compellingly accurate my reasoning becomes. The politics of union or the longevity of the UK don’t matter. It is the human state of being British in mind and deed as opposed to being anything else that counts.

We have already debunked the fallacy of mass migration to Britain over the centuries. In 1851 the proportion of the population born abroad was 0.6%. It had been largely stable and homogenous for centuries. Of course the British identity and the English language borrowed fundamentals from all and sundry in antiquity and the Middle Ages. All of these constituent parts were blended with the indigenous character and eventually yielded the culture we have built over the centuries. This is what makes it such a formidable phenomenon. As it developed its own identity, it gradually became more and more discrete from its origins. To deny that British culture is different from all of those ancient European influences and traditions is akin to saying that the higher apes are in no way distinct from the primordial soup from which they emerged or other species that evolved in parallel. “With Europe, but not of it.” is a famous Churchillian quote. Perhaps we could make a case for “of, but not with.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_immigration_to_Great_Britain

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/48

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On 6/18/2019 at 8:52 AM, RIchard Britten said:

@woolley care to respond to my question in relation to your assertion?

This does rather postdate the discussion we have been having concerning the establishment and development of the identity over more than a thousand years. Many of the ethnic minorities you speak of have arrived in numbers in the last 70 years which is the blink of an eye in long term demographics. As far as it goes though, I know for certain that black and Asian communities do indeed have a British identity reaching back to their empire antecedents, although perhaps many of them cleave to their lands of origin more than earlier arrivals, as illustrated by the practice of returning to the homeland for a marriage partner. It takes time, and lots of it. It is more complex and too early to judge in the case of Muslims who have arrived in such large numbers over a very short time, and with such strong religious beliefs that transcend allegiance to any state culture, that a high proportion look to their imams before British values. Interesting times.

There is a decided haves and have nots dimension in Britain today. This is one of the stresses being exploited by those who would undermine our unity and we ignore it at our peril.

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The point we are making is that the population of these islands has historically not been homogeneous.  

It was not all that long ago that Irish workers were vilified in Britain but now you would seem happy to state that the Irish somehow share in a British culture.

That will probably be news to a lot of people living in Ireland.

Your argument is weak and full of rhetoric which is not historically accurate.

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

The point we are making is that the population of these islands has historically not been homogeneous.  

It was not all that long ago that Irish workers were vilified in Britain but now you would seem happy to state that the Irish somehow share in a British culture.

That will probably be news to a lot of people living in Ireland.

Your argument is weak and full of rhetoric which is not historically accurate.

Rhetoric? On the contrary, it is entirely accurate. We are not talking politics here. A good proportion of us have Irish ancestors even though we don't identify as Irish. That's undeniable? If I go to Dublin it feels much as any other city elsewhere in the British Isles archipelago, and the people live their lives with similar habits to those in Britain. As for the population not being homogenous, I gave you the figures. 0.6% foreign born in the mid 1800s, and well assimilated. How much more homogenous can it be? (Unless we built a wall after the Romans left!).

Irish vilified in Britain? Means nothing. Southerners vilify Northerners and vice versa. Yorkshire vilifies Lancashire, even fought wars! And don't get me started about Scots versus English. Hasn't stopped them living together working together, breeding together.

Edited by woolley
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So, Dublin, which is quite definitely in the EU by the way, feels little different to you than any British city. And that’s your argument for brexit?

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3 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

So, Dublin, which is quite definitely in the EU by the way, feels little different to you than any British city. And that’s your argument for brexit?

:D

You're making it up again. How on Earth do you arrive at that? Your quantum leaps become more spectacular with every installment.

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Made me smile:

5 hours ago, woolley said:

You don’t seem to realise that the more aspects you list to attempt to knock it down, the more compellingly accurate my reasoning becomes. 

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/48

And then you post a link to migrationwatchuk!

Migration Watch UK!

That's as naive as claiming the German Armed Forces are in disarray because Russia Today says they are....

Buried in a Migration Watch report: the truth about immigration!

The relationship between Migration Watch and the press is basically that of a conveyer belt. They release an alarming report about how many migrants are coming to the UK, or how much they cost UK taxpayers, and the press treats it like some respectable piece of academic research.

But Migration Watch doesn't produce academic research. It produces whatever logical contortion is required to turn facts about immigrants into a weapon to beat them with. They'll say anything, or ignore anything, in order to turn the UK's political debate against migrants.

And they always have....

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4 hours ago, woolley said:

Irish vilified in Britain? Means nothing. Southerners vilify Northerners and vice versa. Yorkshire vilifies Lancashire, even fought wars! And don't get me started about Scots versus English. Hasn't stopped them living together working together, breeding together.

Just think about that for a while...

Isn't that much the same as the UKs relationship with Europe? 

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36 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Just think about that for a while...

Isn't that much the same as the UKs relationship with Europe? 

In what way? Certainly not insofar as the distinct British character has developed in the British Isles. There is no single European parallel, nor should there be. Spanish and Finnish, for instance. Or Dutch and Italian. Chalk and cheese and all the better for that.

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