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Holdyerplums

Are the Steam Packet risking a Zeebrugge disaster ??

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As an ex IOM resident now living on the Wirral; when I was sailing back into the IOM ferry berth at Liverpool yesterday (following a pleasant trip on the Balmoral around Anglsea) we passed the Manannan leaving for Douglas & I noticed the stern cargo loading door was open, I went & spoke to a steam packet employee in he arrivals lounge to be told that "yes they do it like that since the the catches broke, the procedures have changed". This morning I had a look through the photo's I took when we were leaving Liverpool as I recalled taking a couple of the incoming Mannan and you can see what the situation is in the picture below... As I recall, when the ship is about to leave port the Captain announces to those on board that "all external doors are closed and the ship is ready for sea" - also, I undersatnd that the Captain has to verify to the Coastguard before setting sail that "there are no defects" - or list them; is this being done ?.
 
 
Manannan entering the Mersey on 22/07/2017 at 09.43 showing the cargo loading ramp/door clearly not locked & indeed, wideopen. Ironically, this position is roughly where the original Ellen Vannin sank in 1909 - swamped by a large wave to her stern...
 
NB: Excerpt from the International Maritime Organisation rules on RORO ferries safety -
"Following the Herald of free Enterprise and the Estonia disasters, the Maritime Safety Committee (MSC) adopted the first package of amendments to the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) in April 1988, including a new regulation requiring indicators on the navigating bridge for all doors which, if left open, could lead to major flooding of a special category space or a ro-ro cargo space; another amendment added a new regulation requiring cargo loading doors to be locked before the ship proceeds on any voyage and to remain closed until the ship is at its next berth. These amendments entered into force on 22 October 1989, 18 months after adoption, the minimum time period allowed under SOLAS".
 
NB: I can find nothing to say these rules no longer apply or have been amended for short trips in good weather etc.
Concerned - Alex on the Wirral.
Edited by Holdyerplums

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If I recall correctly they can't close it because it now has a foot passenger gangway attached to it.

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I fear you have been misled or misunderstood what you think you heard !

there is no problem with doors closing

 

with regard to Manannan the stern loading ramp is about 20ft above the water level anyway, and isn't designed to fully close vertical

(and there's a huge opening on the front deck onto the car deck too, if you're worried about the rain getting in)

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So why then are the IOM Steam Packet Company allowed to ignore International rules which clearly state they have be closed (irrespective of what they have attached to it...) before departing and not unlocked again until the ship berths again. Been trying to attach a photo but for some reason it won't play - but the door is at 45 degrees.

I suppose Grenfell residents were also fed some cock & bull story about why rules don't need to be adhered to.

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26 minutes ago, Holdyerplums said:

So why then are the IOM Steam Packet Company allowed to ignore International rules which clearly state they have be closed (irrespective of what they have attached to it...) before departing and not unlocked again until the ship berths again. Been trying to attach a photo but for some reason it won't play - but the door is at 45 degrees.

I suppose Grenfell residents were also fed some cock & bull story about why rules don't need to be adhered to.

I suggest you read the extract you posted, and the regulation. Your interpretation is wrong. If you understand what the regulation and apply what it says to the Mannanan you'll see that Mannanan isn't in breach and that Solas provision doesn't apply to it.

BTW I sailed on Mannanan twice last week and the rear door was closed. I reversed on last so was facing it. There was no light leakage when we went down to disembark and waited for the door to be open.

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Can you link to whatever says the Manannan is exempt from these International regulations please - my info came from here -

http://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safety/Regulations/Pages/RO-ROFerries.aspx

& it states in the section on High Speed Craft that SOLAS does apply... viz -

" The HSC Code is intended to be a complete set of comprehensive requirements for high-speed craft, including equipment and conditions for operation and maintenance. A basic aim is to provide levels of safety which are equivalent to those contained in SOLAS".

&

" Due to rapid pace of development in the HSC sector, in December 2000, the Maritime Safety Committee adopted amendments to SOLAS chapter X to make mandatory for new ships the High-Speed Craft Code 2000. The 2000 HSC Code updates the 1994 HSC Code and applies to all HSC built after the date of entry into force, 1 July 2002. The original Code will continue to apply to high-speed craft built before that date". Manannan was built in 1998.

On your comment that you sialed on it twice & the stern door was shut - well, that makes it worse because the door was definitely open at 45 degrees yesterday - which indicates deliberation.

I hope this photo shows up this time..

Manannan

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1 hour ago, Holdyerplums said:

So why then are the IOM Steam Packet Company allowed to ignore International rules which clearly state they have be closed (irrespective of what they have attached to it...) before departing and not unlocked again until the ship berths again. Been trying to attach a photo but for some reason it won't play - but the door is at 45 degrees.

I suppose Grenfell residents were also fed some cock & bull story about why rules don't need to be adhered to.

presumably it doesn't apply as there is no chance of flooding

Quote

all doors which, if left open, could lead to major flooding of a special category space or a ro-ro cargo space

if you're so worried try asking them, the marine surveyors won't allow them to put to sea if it doesn't comply, and it's been the same since it arrived 8 years ago

DSC02483 (Small).JPG

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It doesn't actually need a cat flap on the back to be safe.

If you look at similar vessels in the Canary Islands (out in the Atlantic), they are sailing around with nothing more than a curtain on the back end, that looks a bit like a midcourt tennis net. (The ramp is part of the port infrastructure there) .

Closing the flap is probably just cosmetic.

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I'm not worried as the chance of me ever sailing on her again are minor and i'm also not trying to start an argument - I have to say that dismissive and prickly responses aren't very conducive to sensible discussion either, no matter how senior a member of the forum - this COULD be a serious issue...,

Yesterday I saw the stern door open and did ask "THEM", to be told that it was due to some catches being broken; so if the ship sailed on a roughish day - say a force 4 & then it's engines failed for whatever reason, you don't think a heavy swell could swamp the car deck with the stern door at 45 degrees ??  What evidence is there of there being "no chance of it flooding". Anything like there being no chance of a cladded tower block catching fire maybe ?

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6 minutes ago, Holdyerplums said:

I'm not worried as the chance of me ever sailing on her again are minor and i'm also not trying to start an argument - I have to say that dismissive and prickly responses aren't very conducive to sensible discussion either, no matter how senior a member of the forum - this COULD be a serious issue...,

Yesterday I saw the stern door open and did ask "THEM", to be told that it was due to some catches being broken; so if the ship sailed on a roughish day - say a force 4 & then it's engines failed for whatever reason, you don't think a heavy swell could swamp the car deck with the stern door at 45 degrees ??  What evidence is there of there being "no chance of it flooding". Anything like there being no chance of a cladded tower block catching fire maybe ?

It doesn't sail if it fails the match test.

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If you look on the Incat web site you will see SECATs with no stern door at all, you can see the parked cars. 

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The door has never closed since the boat came here.. if you look at photos you can see two aluminium stoppers the door closes onto it is then chained up no catches as such a.who said catches were broken an engineering type or a check in girl.

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stop worrying about it, people who spend their lives approving or sailing these things have no problems with it, it's just raising your blood pressure.

If you're so worried about it ask SPCo (not just some bod in the check-in) or report it to MCA

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1 hour ago, Tempus Fugit said:

stop worrying about it, people who spend their lives approving or sailing these things have no problems with it, it's just raising your blood pressure.

If you're so worried about it ask SPCo (not just some bod in the check-in) or report it to MCA

Or better still, post on here and let one of the many marine experts on here calm your fears...

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2 hours ago, Holdyerplums said:

I'm not worried as the chance of me ever sailing on her again are minor and i'm also not trying to start an argument - I have to say that dismissive and prickly responses aren't very conducive to sensible discussion either, no matter how senior a member of the forum - this COULD be a serious issue...,

Yesterday I saw the stern door open and did ask "THEM", to be told that it was due to some catches being broken; so if the ship sailed on a roughish day - say a force 4 & then it's engines failed for whatever reason, you don't think a heavy swell could swamp the car deck with the stern door at 45 degrees ??  What evidence is there of there being "no chance of it flooding". Anything like there being no chance of a cladded tower block catching fire maybe ?

For somebody not trying to start an argument you are making a pretty poor job of it. I sailed on the Manannan on Friday and Saturday and was only a few cars from the ramp at the back and it appeared in the normal position for both sailings and the securing chains appeared to have to be detached as per usual before it could be lowered.

You print regulations but I expect your knowledge is on a par to mine on the issue i.e. nil. It might state "including a new regulation requiring indicators on the navigating bridge for all doors which, if left open, could lead to major flooding of a special category space or a ro-ro cargo space; another amendment added a new regulation requiring cargo loading doors to be locked before the ship proceeds on any voyage and to remain closed until the ship is at its next berth" however I expect you like me have absolutely no idea what areas are defined as special cargo space or ro-ro cargo space on the Manannan, whether the stern ramp is defined as a door that has to be closed or if it does then at what point it would be defined as being closed.

Yet despite that you are happy to allege on a public forum that they may be happy to operate in an illegal manner which could have major consequences. Unless you have some major proof which you have yet to demonstrate on hear that you are not talking bollocks I hope they sue your arse.

 

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