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DED spit the dummy over Airbnb?


Manx Bean
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I don't think it is really in this case.

It isn't right that people can essentially operate as B & B's or Hotels (which is exactly what they are doing) without being subject to some sort of oversight that those who do operate in the industry as a full time business need to.

How can that be a decent thing?  There's a lot of moaning and whining on here about quality of accommodation and hotels, availability etc and the last thing a struggling industry on a small island needs to a load of people stealing business without at least playing by the rules and operating on a level playing field.

To be fair it's hardly a money spinner for DED.  

 

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I really think our island needs to offer 'authentic' Manx accommodation to visitors & AirBnB is great for that, really operating outside of the daft confines that DED likes to bully accommodation providers with to assert it's bureaucratic 'worthiness'

Normal business type rules have to apply tho' & you must have public liability insurance + fire certificate

Cheeky Boy has written very well about this in earlier pages

I would add that AirBnB does help level the playing field Notwell - bigger hotels have immense marketing power & a lot of unhealthy influence in the Chamber of Commerce and with the Chief Minister (previous ones anyway)

Edited by Donald Trumps
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14 minutes ago, notwell said:

I don't think it is really in this case.

It isn't right that people can essentially operate as B & B's or Hotels (which is exactly what they are doing) without being subject to some sort of oversight that those who do operate in the industry as a full time business need to.

How can that be a decent thing?  There's a lot of moaning and whining on here about quality of accommodation and hotels, availability etc and the last thing a struggling industry on a small island needs to a load of people stealing business without at least playing by the rules and operating on a level playing field.

To be fair it's hardly a money spinner for DED.  

 

How on earth is any of the above, in principle, any different to the tax avoidance that you're otherwise so keen to espouse on these boards?

Essentially, "If you can get away with it, do it and everybody else can pay, regardless of the consequences and any negative effects".

It's exactly the same moral but applied in a different industry.

You can't complain about the morals of one and praise the other.

To quote, "The last thing a struggling industry on a small Island needs is a load of people stealing business without at least playing by the rules and operating on a level playing field".

Just delete "industry" and insert "Govt and local economy".

The only difference is that we amend "the rules" and "the playing field" for the privileged some. The fallout however, remains the same. Everybody else suffers. As we are seeing.

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4 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said:

I really think our island needs to offer 'authentic' Manx accommodation to visitors & AirBnB is great for that, really operating outside of the daft confines that DED likes to bully accommodation providers

Normal business type rules have to apply & you must have public liability insurance

Cheeky Boy has written well about this in earlier pages

I would add that AirBnB does level the playing field Notwell - bigger hotels have immense marketing power & a lot of unhealthy influence in the Chamber of Commerce and with the Chief Minister (previous ones anyway)

I saw Cheeky Boy's posts and they were really good.

I'm not against people letting out their property.  I simply think they should have to jump through some hoops and do it properly.  You mentioned a level playing field but I cannot see how it is level unless Airbnb suppliers are subject to the same sort of standards as the rest of the industry.

To me, it's a bit like anyone being allowed to simply act as a taxi.   With no permissions or regulations.  Simply pitch up and take passengers.   I'm not sure that would be acceptable?

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15 minutes ago, notwell said:

I don't think it is really in this case.

It isn't right that people can essentially operate as B & B's or Hotels (which is exactly what they are doing) without being subject to some sort of oversight that those who do operate in the industry as a full time business need to.

How can that be a decent thing?  There's a lot of moaning and whining on here about quality of accommodation and hotels, availability etc and the last thing a struggling industry on a small island needs to a load of people stealing business without at least playing by the rules and operating on a level playing field.

To be fair it's hardly a money spinner for DED.  

 

You're totally missing the point. You are clearly right that accommodation should ideally be vetted - but that vetting needs only to be about safety etc. It doesn't need to be about the number of egg cups or the quality of the accommodation. Satisfaction is the issue. Provided a property meets safety standards - it doesn't matter the quality of the accommodation ... whether you are sleeping on the sofa or renting a whole castle. The price and the customer reviews will quickly indicate whether it meets typical expectations at the right price.

That's all between the guest and the host. Customer reviews provide a far better way on ensuring satisfaction - and also address much better the issue of whether people were actually friendly, polite etc - both hosts and guests. Because guests are also reviewed - and that's an important point - it's not like Home Stay where people often have no idea who is arriving or whether they are likely to be a good fit. Reviews are about building reputation. You cannot review a property unless you actually stayed there - and you cannot be reviewed as a guest unless you actually were. It's all about the customer reviews and the fact that these are attributed.

Another excellent thing is that Airbnb acts as an intermediary with respect to the money. The guests pay in advance before a booking can be confirmed - but the hosts do not get that money if there is any issue. Overall Airbnb provide a better degree of two-way trust between guest and host vs the old fashioned legacy booking systems.

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2 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

How on earth is any of the above, in principle, any different to the tax avoidance that you're otherwise so keen to espouse on these boards?

Essentially, "If you can get away with it, do it and everybody else can pay, regardless of the consequences and any negative effects".

It's exactly the same moral but applied in a different industry.

You can't complain about the morals of one and praise the other.

To quote, "The last thing a struggling industry on a small Island needs is a load of people stealing business without at least playing by the rules and operating on a level playing field".

Just delete "industry" and insert "Govt and local economy".

The only difference is that we amend "the rules" and "the playing field" for the privileged some. The fallout however, remains the same. Everybody else suffers. As we are seeing.

It isn't about morals.  It's about legality.

Debates around morality are pointles because what is morally acceptable to ten people might be unacceptable morally to another 10 people.  Which is where the basis of law sorts the debate out.

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4 minutes ago, notwell said:

It isn't about morals.  It's about legality.

Debates around morality are pointles because what is morally acceptable to ten people might be unacceptable morally to another 10 people.  Which is where the basis of law sorts the debate out.

Strange, given how flexible your adherence to "legality" is.

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2 minutes ago, pongo said:

You're totally missing the point. You are clearly right that accommodation should ideally be vetted - but that vetting needs only to be about safety etc. It doesn't need to be about the number of egg cups or the quality of the accommodation. Satisfaction is the issue. Provided a property meets safety standards - it doesn't matter the quality of the accommodation ... whether you are sleeping on the sofa or renting a whole castle. The price and the customer reviews will quickly indicate whether it meets typical expectations at the right price.

That's all between the guest and the host. Customer reviews provide a far better way on ensuring satisfaction - and also address much better the issue of whether people were actually friendly, polite etc - both hosts and guests. Because guests are also reviewed - and that's an important point - it's not like Home Stay where people often have no idea who is arriving or whether they are likely to be a good fit. Reviews are about building reputation. You cannot review a property unless you actually stayed there - and you cannot be reviewed as a guest unless you actually were. It's all about the customer reviews and the fact that these are attributed.

Another excellent thing is that Airbnb acts as an intermediary with respect to the money. The guests pay in advance before a booking can be confirmed - but the hosts do not get that money if there is any issue. Overall Airbnb provide a better degree of two-way trust between guest and host vs the old fashioned legacy booking systems.

I'm not disagreeing with you Pongo.  In my opinion as long as somewhere is registered, conforms to the required safety / fire standards and is appropriate insured then i wouldn't dispute your points.

I agree about the "egg cups" point.   That is plainly silly and unnecessary.  But I do think there is value in an element of registration and control.  And ongoing oversight to ensure the safety standards are maintained and insurance kept appropriately. 

To be clear, i'm not against properties being let out in this manner.

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2 minutes ago, notwell said:

I'm not disagreeing with you Pongo.  In my opinion as long as somewhere is registered, conforms to the required safety / fire standards and is appropriate insured then i wouldn't dispute your points.

I agree about the "egg cups" point.   That is plainly silly and unnecessary.  But I do think there is value in an element of registration and control.  And ongoing oversight to ensure the safety standards are maintained and insurance kept appropriately. 

To be clear, i'm not against properties being let out in this manner.

What is the value in DED registration & control?

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in my eyes it means the people letting out their accommodation are subject to the fire/safety/insurance aspects and it ensure they are on the radar from an income tax perspective.

Why would you have an issue with that Donald?  Personally I don't care if DED do it, or another department.  Same pricipal.

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2 minutes ago, notwell said:

in my eyes it means the people letting out their accommodation are subject to the fire/safety/insurance aspects and it ensure they are on the radar from an income tax perspective.

Why do you believe that this should work any different from, say, renting the spare room to a lodger? Or, for that matter, renting out an apartment. People who rent out their property normally are not required to be "on the radar" with respect to income tax. They are just required to declare the income.

^ talking specifically about the tax thing here. Not the building safety etc - which is covered by existing regulation. You seem to have a special bee in your bonnet about specifically short term rentals.

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