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But which was it then, tree on fire, clear the road, open the roads for traffic, or the poor souls on the mountain getting a chill that made a car travel in excess of 90mph to a death scene?  

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So essentially it was because there was a tree on fire, and it was also to inspect the course - or was it as "man in pub" has said everyone knew it was a Manx boy and rational thought disappeared, or was it rogue Glen Tramman Marshal - anyway doesn't matter as Max believes that GT COC the only man charged with overall responsibility shouldn't be blamed or held responsible because errrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmm just because.

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1 hour ago, gettafa said:

Someone should have told the deemster. He's gone away to have a jolly good think about that very matter.

Probably because, somewhat surprisingly, it’s not been drafted as an ‘exclusive jurisdiction’ clause.  I’m not a lawyer, but if you want to enforce jurisdiction, safer to write exclusivity into the terms. 

In fact, some of the other wording seems quite sloppy to me.  For instance, in the event of a red flag, riders are instructed to ride their machines ‘back’ to parc ferme; although elsewhere in the document it is made very clear that riders must not go the ‘wrong way’ around the course without proper instruction, telling them to go ‘back’ is not only ambiguous but potentially dangerous.

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The precedent was set years before when GT thought he’d think out the box and be dead clever by sending them the wrong way. An accident waiting to happen. And it surely did.. His record at other courses around the UK aren’t exactly exemplary. 

His fingerprints are all over this.  

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7 minutes ago, Gizo said:

But which was it then, tree on fire, clear the road, open the roads for traffic, or the poor souls on the mountain getting a chill that made a car travel in excess of 90mph to a death scene?  

More than likely a combination of all those factors?

7 minutes ago, Mr Helmut Fromage said:

So essentially it was because there was a tree on fire, and it was also to inspect the course - or was it as "man in pub" has said everyone knew it was a Manx boy and rational thought disappeared, or was it rogue Glen Tramman Marshal - anyway doesn't matter as Max believes that GT COC the only man charged with overall responsibility shouldn't be blamed or held responsible because errrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmm just because.

I didn't say he shouldn't bear some of the responsibility as the man in charge, I did say that he shouldn't be fired.

2 minutes ago, Gizo said:

The precedent was set years before when GT thought he’d think out the box and be dead clever by sending them the wrong way. An accident waiting to happen. And it surely did.. His record at other courses around the UK aren’t exactly exemplary. 

His fingerprints are all over this.  

Gizo, riders were being returned wrong direction in 2008, maybe even earlier. GT wasn't involved then.

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I wonder if it will be settled out of court with a gagging order?

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27 minutes ago, bankerboy said:

although elsewhere in the document it is made very clear that riders must not go the ‘wrong way’ around the course without proper instruction....

This.

As I've suggested before, Mercer and the group wouldn't have set off in the reverse direction without being told to do so.

At the vicinity that they were being held after being red-flagged they would accept such instruction from Course Officials or a Marshal who the riders would have thought were acting with Race Control authority. Why wouldn't they?

No other riders or groups who had been pulled up were released contra-course.

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1 hour ago, Max Power said:

A lot of that changed years ago Roger, the fact remains that the course can never be realistically made totally safe. Every accident is different and it's only when an unusual occurrence becomes regular in any risk assessment for any activity (TT related or not) that actions may be taken. Most eventualities have been covered over the years but due to the nature of the course it is impossible to cover every single unforeseen incident. 

The answer would be to make the course like one huge short circuit with big gravel traps at every corner, remove trees, lamp posts, houses, walls, hedges etc. That would never happen. Even if it did, we'd still have incidents and probably fatalities. 

But wouldn`t every rider have insurance anyway ?

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9 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

This.

As I've suggested before, Mercer and the group wouldn't have set off in the reverse direction without being told to do so.

At the vicinity that they were being held after being red-flagged they would accept such instruction from Course Officials or a Marshal who the riders would have thought were acting with Race Control authority. Why wouldn't they?

No other riders or groups who had been pulled up were released contra-course.

You've basically answered the whole question, other than why they were released from only one location, particularly as all the radio messages would most likely have been given out at the same time and by the same person.

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2 hours ago, Max Power said:

the fact remains that the course can never be realistically made totally safe.

 

That's fair enough, everyone knows this, hit a wall at 100 mph + and you're probably dead, nothing we can do about it.

But this incident occurred under red flags, and it should have been 100% safe. It wasn't.

There must be something I'm not getting about this incident. Just fucking take responsibility, pay the man and make sure it can never happen again.

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23 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

This.

As I've suggested before, Mercer and the group wouldn't have set off in the reverse direction without being told to do so.

At the vicinity that they were being held after being red-flagged they would accept such instruction from Course Officials or a Marshal who the riders would have thought were acting with Race Control authority. Why wouldn't they?

No other riders or groups who had been pulled up were released contra-course.

Should there not be a "qualified person" as opposed to "a biker just helping out" as a marshall who has experience to marshall ?

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2 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

That's fair enough, everyone knows this, hit a wall at 100 mph + and you're probably dead, nothing we can do about it.

But this incident occurred under red flags, and it should have been 100% safe. It wasn't.

There must be something I'm not getting about this incident. Just fucking take responsibility, pay the man and make sure it can never happen again.

I think that's what they are trying to do? 

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4 minutes ago, LightBulb said:

Should there not be a "qualified person" as opposed to "a biker just helping out" as a marshall who has experience to marshall ?

There would be a DSM, Deputy Sector Marshal, in charge at the position. He would be IMC trained and be experienced. What other qualifications would you think they should have to perform the task?

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14 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I think that's what they are trying to do? 

Well I hope so.

Imagine an industrial accident, say a busy building site, a JCB has tipped over onto a half constructed house, the foreman tells everyone to down tools. During the waiting another person of officialdom instructs a worker to go into the cab  and turn off the engine, the wall collapses and the worker dies. Who goes to jail?

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Couple of pennoth-worth

This was down to systems failure. A symptom of the scope and scale of the event, and perhaps the relative dispersal of key, qualified personnel. Comms broke down. People ended up in the same place at the same time whereas otherwise they wouldn’t. See Tenerife Air Disaster.

This wasn’t the car drivers fault. As I’ve said before, for some reason he is no fan of me, but he will have been en route with clear and explicit instruction, and with no reasonable expectation of something coming the other way. And although there is this arbitrary 90mph limit (which nobody knows who picked and why) even 100-110 is not ‘fast’ on the majority of the course for a car.

Whenever I’ve had to make progress on closed roads, it’s been with blues and sirens going. I think this is something that might be worth looking at for course cars too. And I note that the arrangement is now for the cops to make their own way, rather than in a course car. 

This wasnt Mercer’s fault. He, and the others haven’t just set off WD without some instruction.

Tech might well be a future fix for something of this complexity. GPS might be able to plot every vehicle. But it will be expensive and sophisticated.

I wonder whether the insurers have a view on all this. There must be a point where there is a likelihood of declined terms?

hopefully, Steve will get some quality of life back, there will be a big review of how things can get better, and they will. 

 

 

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