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TT 2018

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Posted (edited)

The TT needs adjustments.

Long overdue but I believe that commercial considerations (as I've previously posted) are taking precedence.

Example. The sidecar class (albeit a breed apart) was subject to change for the 1990 event over concerns in power/speed/construction following fatalities inquests in previous years.

The old open class was debarred and F2 350cc 2T/600cc 4T regulations were adopted to be the class standard (at questionably short notice if one listens to some competitors of the time). At that time the lap record stood @ 108 mph for the now barred larger machines.

Where are we now? The lap record has been pushed to @ 120mph, largely through the development of engines and tyres (early 600s lapped @ 100mph), passengers still cling on by grace, in sharp contrast to the safety requirements of the 4 wheel racing car technology that now influences much of their design.

Any sign of the informed concerns that imposed limitations back in 1990..? No. But what's majorly changed in terms of racing practices and safety requirements?

Nothing. The sport knowledge and concern that had precedence in 1990 and imposed restrictions no longer has control. Because money and attraction has overridden safety.

Edited by Non-Believer
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Non-Believer, I do agree in many ways, although it must be recognised that in the time that has passed since 1990 there have been tremendous leaps in the technology involved in both machinery and rider's equipment. Riders who were doing c.100mph laps in 1990 are doing around 115mph laps today with a similar amount of effort, unfortunately this doesn't guarantee them a place on the grid anymore as qualifying speeds have been raised. Riders don't know if they have gone fast enough until after the last qualifying session, which does put extra pressure on them, particularly as they are in effect racing for a better start position. It is right I feel, that competitors should take qualifying seriously but I'm not sure that the extra stress is helpful? The rider aids on the majority of Superbikes mean that riders have to use them to be competitive, a big leap of faith for some! These do lead to the extremely fast laps we see today but do they make the bikes safer, I just don't know? 

What do you think would be the way to go? I'm not sure that smaller engines necessarily make things safer?

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33 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Non-Believer, I do agree in many ways, although it must be recognised that in the time that has passed since 1990 there have been tremendous leaps in the technology involved in both machinery and rider's equipment. Riders who were doing c.100mph laps in 1990 are doing around 115mph laps today with a similar amount of effort, unfortunately this doesn't guarantee them a place on the grid anymore as qualifying speeds have been raised. Riders don't know if they have gone fast enough until after the last qualifying session, which does put extra pressure on them, particularly as they are in effect racing for a better start position. It is right I feel, that competitors should take qualifying seriously but I'm not sure that the extra stress is helpful? The rider aids on the majority of Superbikes mean that riders have to use them to be competitive, a big leap of faith for some! These do lead to the extremely fast laps we see today but do they make the bikes safer, I just don't know? 

What do you think would be the way to go? I'm not sure that smaller engines necessarily make things safer?

You can bleat all you like about engine size,  capacity, qualifying times, the stone walls are still the same however. 

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2 minutes ago, Gizo said:

You can bleat all you like about engine size,  capacity, qualifying times, the stone walls are still the same however

as are the views of the Pro/Anti TT brigade

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Max Power said:

Non-Believer, I do agree in many ways, although it must be recognised that in the time that has passed since 1990 there have been tremendous leaps in the technology involved in both machinery and rider's equipment. Riders who were doing c.100mph laps in 1990 are doing around 115mph laps today with a similar amount of effort, unfortunately this doesn't guarantee them a place on the grid anymore as qualifying speeds have been raised. Riders don't know if they have gone fast enough until after the last qualifying session, which does put extra pressure on them, particularly as they are in effect racing for a better start position. It is right I feel, that competitors should take qualifying seriously but I'm not sure that the extra stress is helpful? The rider aids on the majority of Superbikes mean that riders have to use them to be competitive, a big leap of faith for some! These do lead to the extremely fast laps we see today but do they make the bikes safer, I just don't know? 

What do you think would be the way to go? I'm not sure that smaller engines necessarily make things safer?

I think they need to look at power/speed restrictions of some sort. "How" is another question because the regulations would then be out of step with the national regs. When the Superbike regs were adopted (2004?) it was because the TT F1 regs were out of step with everything else.

But the TT is not "everywhere else". It's very, very different. The problem is, that specifying TT-peculiar machinery would create additional expense for competitors. I toyed, for instance, with the idea of putting the 650cc Lightweight twin engines in the sidecars with rigorous tuning restrictions, but that creates the additional machinery expense scenario. And I say rigorous restrictions because the money that's being thrown at the Lightweight bikes now is ridiculous in the context of what was supposed to be a budget, entry level class.

So how to do it? Increased tuning restrictions on existing regulations is probably the best way (sidecars had to run with standard cylinder heads in 2012, that was well-received by some competitors but was dropped again the following year for some reason?). Or even enforcing some of the original regs which somehow get slacker every year?

Mind, if the Japanese manufacturers continue to pull out of the 600 sportsbike market it might be forced upon the organisers anyway. We went with the current class format because "it reflected the UK market's popularities", quoth David Cretney (Andy Kershaw quipped that if we took that to its natural conclusion, we end up racing scooters and mopeds).

Sportsbike sales have been on the slump for years because of their narrow, track-based focus. It's no longer the UK market. So what to replace them with and adapt to racing suitable for the Mountain?

Edited by Non-Believer
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55 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

I think they need to look at power/speed restrictions of some sort. "How" is another question because the regulations would then be out of step with the national regs. When the Superbike regs were adopted (2004?) it was because the TT F1 regs were out of step with everything else.

But the TT is not "everywhere else". It's very, very different. The problem is, that specifying TT-peculiar machinery would create additional expense for competitors. I toyed, for instance, with the idea of putting the 650cc Lightweight twin engines in the sidecars with rigorous tuning restrictions, but that creates the additional machinery expense scenario. And I say rigorous restrictions because the money that's being thrown at the Lightweight bikes now is ridiculous in the context of what was supposed to be a budget, entry level class.

So how to do it? Increased tuning restrictions on existing regulations is probably the best way (sidecars had to run with standard cylinder heads in 2012, that was well-received by some competitors but was dropped again the following year for some reason?). Or even enforcing some of the original regs which somehow get slacker every year?

Mind, if the Japanese manufacturers continue to pull out of the 600 sportsbike market it might be forced upon the organisers anyway. We went with the current class format because "it reflected the UK market's popularities", quoth David Cretney (Andy Kershaw quipped that if we took that to its natural conclusion, we end up racing scooters and mopeds).

Sportsbike sales have been on the slump for years because of their narrow, track-based focus. It's no longer the UK market. So what to replace them with and adapt to racing suitable for the Mountain?

It's not only the UK market which is undergoing a slump in sports bike sales, as you say they have become more and more track focussed. Manufacturers are still planning big sports bikes, more and more specialised and expensive but the 600's are beginning to die away now. Maybe it's time for the TT to plough its own furrow with a return to the F1-F2-F3 days? Stricter performance limits but open chassis with a sensible formula whereby bespoke racing chassis are used with non sports bike engines? It might catch on?

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1 hour ago, Gizo said:

You can bleat all you like about engine size,  capacity, qualifying times, the stone walls are still the same however. 

They are Gizo, would you support the building of a purpose built 3.5 mile circuit on the island, retaining some of the character of the TT course but as safe as a GP track?

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28 minutes ago, Max Power said:

They are Gizo, would you support the building of a purpose built 3.5 mile circuit on the island, retaining some of the character of the TT course but as safe as a GP track?

Yes. If not a single penny of taxpayer money goes towards it.  

You TT lovers can crack on as much as you like, your own track, your own investment, your own land. Just don’t expect me to pay anything towards it. 

In its present form the government is actively promoting killing on a large scale. 

However, it is ironic at the same time that every year not one politico or mhk puts his name to the TT, (except Collister, but he’ll do anything for 15minutes) you’d think the CM every year would actively welcome our visitors and TT and even encourage the populace to get behind and “flag wave” the TT, but NOTHING, absolutely zilch, nada. That in itself speaks volumes. You’ll see them at the free beer tent, but thats just another trough to slurp out of. For all my MHKs faults, at least Lord Admiral Watterson knows the folly of the TT. 

#bantheTT

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Midget Racers with full roll cages?

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49 minutes ago, Gizo said:

Yes. If not a single penny of taxpayer money goes towards it.  

You TT lovers can crack on as much as you like, your own track, your own investment, your own land. Just don’t expect me to pay anything towards it. 

In its present form the government is actively promoting killing on a large scale. 

However, it is ironic at the same time that every year not one politico or mhk puts his name to the TT, (except Collister, but he’ll do anything for 15minutes) you’d think the CM every year would actively welcome our visitors and TT and even encourage the populace to get behind and “flag wave” the TT, but NOTHING, absolutely zilch, nada. That in itself speaks volumes. You’ll see them at the free beer tent, but thats just another trough to slurp out of. For all my MHKs faults, at least Lord Admiral Watterson knows the folly of the TT. 

#bantheTT

Good post ! Says it all.

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18 hours ago, Max Power said:

I've been there, during the climbing season there are lots watching the climbers on the Eiger through binoculars.

Some analogy Max :o

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18 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

The TT needs adjustments.

Long overdue but I believe that commercial considerations (as I've previously posted) are taking precedence.

Example. The sidecar class (albeit a breed apart) was subject to change for the 1990 event over concerns in power/speed/construction following fatalities inquests in previous years.

The old open class was debarred and F2 350cc 2T/600cc 4T regulations were adopted to be the class standard (at questionably short notice if one listens to some competitors of the time). At that time the lap record stood @ 108 mph for the now barred larger machines.

Where are we now? The lap record has been pushed to @ 120mph, largely through the development of engines and tyres (early 600s lapped @ 100mph), passengers still cling on by grace, in sharp contrast to the safety requirements of the 4 wheel racing car technology that now influences much of their design.

Any sign of the informed concerns that imposed limitations back in 1990..? No. But what's majorly changed in terms of racing practices and safety requirements?

Nothing. The sport knowledge and concern that had precedence in 1990 and imposed restrictions no longer has control. Because money and attraction has overridden safety.

Don’t forget all the widening and straightening of many bends including positive camber in the name of safety, but all it’s done is make the circuit ( ??) faster.

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1 hour ago, Gizo said:

Yes. If not a single penny of taxpayer money goes towards it.  

You TT lovers can crack on as much as you like, your own track, your own investment, your own land. Just don’t expect me to pay anything towards it. 

In its present form the government is actively promoting killing on a large scale. 

However, it is ironic at the same time that every year not one politico or mhk puts his name to the TT, (except Collister, but he’ll do anything for 15minutes) you’d think the CM every year would actively welcome our visitors and TT and even encourage the populace to get behind and “flag wave” the TT, but NOTHING, absolutely zilch, nada. That in itself speaks volumes. You’ll see them at the free beer tent, but thats just another trough to slurp out of. For all my MHKs faults, at least Lord Admiral Watterson knows the folly of the TT. 

#bantheTT

And yet governments throughout the world put money into building race tracks to support tourism? Some of the VAT which you have paid has helped to build tracks in Spain through EU grants. 

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31 minutes ago, Max Power said:

And yet governments throughout the world put money into building race tracks to support tourism? Some of the VAT which you have paid has helped to build tracks in Spain through EU grants. 

I think we are quids in on the VAT front. I doubt we pay anything into the EU as we are in receipt of VAT top ups of some millions 

 

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45 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

Some analogy Max :o

its colder here for starters.

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