Henry Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, pongo said: You believe that you know more than the Bank of England and the markets? Govts and central banks decide how much money is in an economy at any time. It’s an entirely artificial system. But you are almost certainly stuck to the old fashioned idea that the economy is like the household budget. It isn’t. It is like running a household budget. We can either afford or we can't afford. The money either balances or it doesn't. It's because of "expert" pinheads in government thinking basic facts of life don't apply to national economies and government spending that we (most of the major world powers) are in the mess we are in. Edited January 28, 2018 by Henry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 @Henry - when a govt borrows money who do you imagine that they borrow from? And what is it that they actually borrow? And who gives the lenders the right to create that liquidity in the first place? Putting it country simple, have you ever wondered what liquidiy is or how it is created and destroyed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesultanofsheight Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, pongo said: The IOM is not a sustainable model in a world of modern money. The household budget is not a good model for govt. It’s also undemocratic. Since monetary policy here is ultimately determined by the BOE and the UK govt. ETA: if the IOM uses sterling then it should have an MP, is the point I am making. Gibraltar has its own MP and it can’t print it’s own money or issue sovereign debt itself either. The fact is we have to work on a house hold budget model as we cannot do any of the things you say as we are a Crown Dependency of the UK with no central bank and no ability to print Sterling. Edited January 28, 2018 by thesultanofsheight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, thesultanofsheight said: Gibraltar has its own MP and it can’t print it’s own money or issue sovereign debt itself either. The fact is we have to work on a house hold budget model as we cannot do any of the things you say as we are a Crown Dependency of the UK with no central bank and no ability to print Sterling. You've answered your own question. Gibraltar has democratic representation in a Parliament which has control over monetary policy (via the BOE). Edited January 28, 2018 by pongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, pongo said: @Henry - when a govt borrows money who do you imagine that they borrow from? And what is it that they actually borrow? And who gives the lenders the right to create that liquidity in the first place? Putting it country simple, have you ever wondered what liquidiy is or how it is created and destroyed? Governments borrow money from all over the world. When they increase inflation, by printing more money, they're not borrowing, they're stealing, as it causes all the existing money supply to lose value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Henry said: Governments borrow money from all over the world. When they increase inflation, by printing more money, they're not borrowing, they're stealing, as it causes all the existing money supply to lose value. Nonsense. Provide any additional liquidity created is also collected back via taxes that liquidity is effectively destroyed. You have to pay your taxes using the govt money. You cannot pay in bitcoin or gold. The problem has been under taxation - ie not removing Sterling liquidity. Edited January 28, 2018 by pongo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesultanofsheight Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, pongo said: You've answered your own question. Gibraltar has democratic representation in a Parliament which has control over monetary policy (via the BOE). Gib pound is the same as Manx pound backed 1:1 with Sterling. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_pound They can’t do any of the things you say. They are in the same position as us on currency and debt despite having an MP in Westminster. Unless you can freely print your own currently and issue sovereign debt you need to take a household budget approach to finances as you can’t just create more money. Edited January 28, 2018 by thesultanofsheight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 1 minute ago, pongo said: Nonsense. Provide any additional liquidity created is also collected back via taxes that liquidity is effectively destroyed. You have to pay your taxes using the govt money. You cannot pay in bitcoin or gold. The problem has been under taxation - ie not removing Sterling liquidity. What you have just posted has no relation to what we were previously talking about. It's as if you're a robot with automated responses that make no sense to the context. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilligaf Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I wonder if the public are prepared to pay for healthcare ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesultanofsheight Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, dilligaf said: I wonder if the public are prepared to pay for healthcare ? With employee / employer NI running at 20% we’re already paying handsomely for it Dilli. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, thesultanofsheight said: Gib pound is the same as Manx pound back 1:1 with Sterling. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_pound Tney can’t do any of the things you say they can. They are in the same position as us on currency and debt despite having an MP in Westminster. There is no long term future for the IOM outside of the UK. It's an accident of history anyhow - not an end in itself. Edited January 28, 2018 by pongo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesultanofsheight Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, pongo said: There is no long term future for the IOM outside of the UK. It's an accident of history anyhow. Yes, but for most Manx people selling out to the UK just to make sure IOMG pensions are paid is utterly abhorrent. We need to learn to live within our means. We can’t print money and we can’t raise sovereign debt. Edited January 28, 2018 by thesultanofsheight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilligaf Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 1 minute ago, thesultanofsheight said: 4 minutes ago, dilligaf said: I wonder if the public are prepared to pay for healthcare ? With employee / employer NI running at 20% we’re already paying handsomely for it Dilli. I was only joking, because the subject matter was getting buried in bullshit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Just now, thesultanofsheight said: Yes, but for most Manx people selling out to the UK just to make sure IOMG pensions are paid is utterly abhorrent. We need to learn to leave within our means, That argument might resonate with me more if the IOM were democratically independent. But it isn't. Most policy is decided in London. Your version of Manx pride seems to be about rejecting the democratic mandate (foreign policy, monetary policy, declaring war etc). In exchange for local taxes and colourful stamps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Down Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 On 24/01/2018 at 3:26 PM, Uhtred said: Relatively few I fear. Oh I don’t know. It may well keep the persistent malingerers away. You have to pay to see the dentist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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