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Alfie Evans is fatally ill. Should he be allowed to die in peace?


Chinahand
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4 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Wardship doesn’t really exist anymore. 

Years ago this type of situation would have been dealt with by making the child a ward and the court deciding the treatment.

Now, if there is a dispute between medics and family the hospital applies to the court.

The Court will not choose between two valid but opposed treatment plans. BUT if there is no realistic treatment, and the court decides that it is not in the interests of the child,  not the interests of the parents or the state, to be kept alive artificially when there is no hope of recovery, the court may authorise removal of medical care and treatment except palliative Care.

The UK, and Manx, approach puts the interests of the child first. Many other countries place the “rights” of the parents, as if the child were their property, first.

Its an big and complex, medico Legal ethical isssue as to what treatment to give to any incurable patient, adult or child, to prolong a life of a human being which apparently has no sensation, awareness, or quality of life, or allow them to die. It’s another related side of the euthanasia debate.

It has become more prevalent due to medical advances which mean that lives can be saved, where before the patient would have died, but that the life saved can only be maintained by complex assistance with breathing, feeding, and has no cognition.

Its made all the more sad, and emotive, when it’s a child.

Thanks John. At least that clears that up.

However in this instance the latest video of Alfie shows his eyes dilating and following his fathers movements and sucking on a pacifier. Now it could be argued that this is an involuntary reflex but there appears enough response to argue that he should be given the chance of continuing until such time as further tests can be done to establish the level of damage. If he was quite clearly unresponsive and in a vegetative state I think one would accept the courts decision on quality of life. Any grey area should err on the side of life rather than death.

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His dad said on the radio this morning that he believed Alfie would eventually wake up if 'given the chance' in Italy (with someone else saying 'yes' in the background).

That is both so desperately sad but seemingly indicative of denial of the facts.

I feel so sorry for the parents but I fear the doctors and courts are right on this one based only on what has been reported. However only the doctors and courts have the full story.

 

Edited by ballaughbiker
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6 hours ago, homarus said:

Almost 2 days now, they expected him to die in a couple of hours ,it's a fucking disgrace!

 I think the more serious question is , since when did the state claim  ownership of children above the Parents  ?

You cannot own another person, not even your children. If you think about it, there are very good reasons for that. Nobody, and no organisation, not even the state, can claim a person as their property. However, we are all subject to the law, administered by the courts, and this can impinge on the parent/child relationship, again for obvious and very good reasons.

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Sad all round there isn't 1 2 3 doctors who have made this decision there's been a team of them along with the courts. Do you really think after nursing this lad for 17 months the doctors and nurses are just thinking oh well let's remove his life saving equipment for a laugh. Of course not. The parents will cling on to any hope but there is no hope. According to the limited reports from doctors he isn't getting better and is getting worse. The parents really need to spend what time they have left with in private and not in the glare of the media. They should take a leaf out of charlie gaards parents

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This "case" is the perfect case for the "anti-NHS" media outlets.

Emotive subject...check

Baby in "peril"...check

"Average Joe" underdog parents against the "nasty" establishment...check

Throw in some "nasty" EU stuff for good measure...check

 

Sounds like an established anti-NHS/pro-privatisation poster - who is buying into it hook, line and sinker.

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I found the NY Times article that China linked to very telling and very persuasive. It is awful that the view in this country is that a human being has to spend their last days or hours on this planet suffocating,  or drowning as their lungs fill with fluids, struggling for breath.   That is the shocking reality all too often.

A brutal and awful decision to have to take, but a truly loving parent would  seek to avoid that for their child, in a country or state where euthanasia is legally permitted.  When the judicial system is acting in place of a parent, some terrible historical associations start to overshadow considerations aimed at the child's welfare. Nevertheless, I think it is clear where the child's interests lie.

Not an option in the UK, so ceasing to ventilate, hydrate and feed the child is all that is available. Hopefully, sedation can lessen the suffering.

Sorry to be so depressing, but it is a horrible subject.

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Social media has played a huge part in all this. It seems we have no end of highly qualified and experienced medical professionals ( so they think ) giving opinions when none are required.

I feel so sad for the parents ( I have two offspring ) but you cant change things just because they are tragic.

Everything possible will have been done  to save this lad, but it has been shown that he cant be saved. What they thought the pope could do is baffling ( :o  ) 

It is heart breaking to see a child die and when our son was born and put in an incubator, there was a baby next to him who was just dying. It was horrible to see and hear and as our son progressed, this other baby was slipping away.

Nothing at all could be done and we were so grateful that we had the surviving child.

I truly feel or those two, but nobody can change things.:(

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Has anyone wondered why the courts / government have the ultimate say on life or death, and not the parents?  Many have had to snatch their child from the hospital to stop a death sentence and get treatment else where.....this is what happens when you register anything, you gift it to the state... 

 

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1 minute ago, gerrydandridge said:

Has anyone wondered why the courts / government have the ultimate say on life or death, and not the parents?  Many have had to snatch their child from the hospital to stop a death sentence and get treatment else where.....this is what happens when you register anything, you gift it to the state... 

 

Go crawl back under your stone. We know you are thick, so why keep trying to rub it in.? Nothing added to the debate.

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6 minutes ago, gerrydandridge said:

Has anyone wondered why the courts / government have the ultimate say on life or death, and not the parents?  Many have had to snatch their child from the hospital to stop a death sentence and get treatment else where.....this is what happens when you register anything, you gift it to the state... 

 

Paranoia incarnate.

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13 minutes ago, gerrydandridge said:

Has anyone wondered why the courts / government have the ultimate say on life or death, and not the parents?  Many have had to snatch their child from the hospital to stop a death sentence and get treatment else where.....this is what happens when you register anything, you gift it to the state... 

 

Quite simply put the state deal with facts. Parents deal with emotion. The parents will cling onto any hope like this italian thing. The Italians agree there is no cure they are just going to stick him onto a ventilator. That' no life never mind the risks getting him there. 

 

Sometimes the decision has to be taken out of the parents hands for the best welfare of the child

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Its not about me being thick or paranoid, its a point of fact.. they would be in total control if they were not coerced into registering the child's birth. the resident legal expert can tell you that registering anything gives legal title to the "loving government"..

Your current debate is futile, until you understand what has caused this issue in the first place, mum and dad have little say, the state will always make the call when it comes to their property...

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25 minutes ago, gerrydandridge said:

Its not about me being thick or paranoid, its a point of fact.. they would be in total control if they were not coerced into registering the child's birth. the resident legal expert can tell you that registering anything gives legal title to the "loving government"..

Your current debate is futile, until you understand what has caused this issue in the first place, mum and dad have little say, the state will always make the call when it comes to their property...

"You can lead a horse to water. but you can't make it drink", should be your epitaph.

You also do yourself no favours with stupid posts like that.

Edited by dilligaf
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