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Beneficial Register MPs visiting IOM

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22 hours ago, MrPB said:

All three islands have received similar letters of delegated authority effectively empowering them I think to make agreements on their own behalf. But basically the UK still seems to think it’s fine to overrule us. What would happen if we used our delegated authority to sign a deal on our own behalf with China to set up an international banking centre. Would the UK just legislate to overrule it anyway if it seen as being too aggressive? 

The Islands were given Letters of Entrustment many years ago for the specific purpose of negotiating a series of tax information exchange treaties. Jersey has recently got one such letter for negotiating a trade deal with the UAE and is asking for another specific letter to sign a deal with another partner..They are specific to purpose and in effect are delegating UK sovereign power for this purpose. They do not grant anything special to the Islands over and above what they have as the UK is overall responsible for their external affairs and that has not changed. In effect the UK has given nothing away but is letting you do it...You are still like a dog on a long lead and can be reeled back in. Also, the agreements must be according to UK policy which remains paramount...

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1 hour ago, Donald Trumps said:

Well written, thanks

At least Quayle has said that IOM will comply with EU requirments if we do not already

Jersey & Guernsey say they will not

Is OECD compliance different to EU compliance?

As I recall the Channel Islands refused to enter into tax exchange information initially when it was mooted many years ago and the IOM was more compliant and cauatious but likewise insisting on a level playing field. However,  in the end the CI got dragged in along with all the rest. The IOM lives up to its motto and achieves that by not upsetting the big boys in the park when they commandeer the rides...

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18 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said:

UK gave IOM Letter of Entrustment to act internationally over matters of setting up agreements under the exchange of information plan of many years ago now which the Island would only then agree to joining if there was a "level playing field"..Same as now with the open register idea....

However so far as I know the Letter of Entrustment was for that one specific purpose. Before then the UK would have arranged international deals on the IOM's behalf. The Letter of Entrustment did not give the Island extra powers it was just being allowed to do the UK's work. The power associated with the Letter of Entrustment were UK powers delegated so now real change at the end of the day. I imagine another Letter or Letters of Entrustment would be needed for other specific purposes.

Above should read "no real change at the end of the day"

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Surely a couple of dodgy dorks on the backbenches of Westminster parliament commons chamber cannot over-rule a 'Letter of Entrustment' for God's sake Barry - what is the world coming to?

Interestingly, whilst Bazza states Tynwald is not sovereign, the City of London apparently is & Commons can't legislate for it

They even have a bod with his/her own chair behind that of Mr Speaker who keeps 'ears open' & can tap him on the shoulder if necessary

How can we become a sovereign 'corporation' Barry?

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45 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said:

The Islands were given Letters of Entrustment many years ago for the specific purpose of negotiating a series of tax information exchange treaties. Jersey has recently got one such letter for negotiating a trade deal with the UAE and is asking for another specific letter to sign a deal with another partner..They are specific to purpose and in effect are delegating UK sovereign power for this purpose. They do not grant anything special to the Islands over and above what they have as the UK is overall responsible for their external affairs and that has not changed. In effect the UK has given nothing away but is letting you do it...You are still like a dog on a long lead and can be reeled back in. Also, the agreements must be according to UK policy which remains paramount...

Those letters were on an agreement by agreement basis though as the Jersey Evening Post article confirms. They are not Carte Blanche agreements; they were issued for a specific purpose. Jerseys proposal seems to be that they now create a risk-based list of countries where entrustment will be automatically granted to allow them to go out and negotiate quickly with a white list of countries the UK has no real objection to them negotiating with. 

But that leaves the question hanging. What entrustment do we really have? Very little in reality so we would be better in negotiating terms as an independent nation able to negotiate what it likes on its own behalf without asking the UKs permission on who we are, and are not, entrusted to contract with. 

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Clearly not a lot of point in obtaining letters of entrustment if backbenchers like Hodge & Mitchell can piss all over them

So negotiating as an independent nation is a better bet

What is the next step to achieve this?

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4 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said:

Clearly not a lot of point in obtaining letters of entrustment if backbenchers like Hodge & Mitchell can piss all over them

 

Hodge & Mitchell are powerful backbenchers. They know what they are doing and are seasoned parliamentarians who gain support first. From those backbenches they would have trounced the Government.

The Government are on Isle of Man side here, hence the amendment was pulled (for now). 

Gripe in this matter is not with the Government, more with the will of Parliament. It was a waste of time and canapes inviting Hodge and Mitchel here.

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33 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said:

Clearly not a lot of point in obtaining letters of entrustment if backbenchers like Hodge & Mitchell can piss all over them

So negotiating as an independent nation is a better bet

What is the next step to achieve this?

Independence? Referendum. Such fun. See what happened in Scotland and the UK! UK has often told the UN decolonisation committee that the IOM is entitled to full independence if it so chooses and invokes the correct methods.

Please note that the Letters of Entrustment are for a specific purpose in accordance with UK policy. The two back benchers are not overthrowing them...and anyway they are old and probably out of date for the IOM those letters..And the MPs have no power to override them...

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41 minutes ago, gettafa said:

Gripe in this matter is not with the Government, more with the will of Parliament. It was a waste of time and canapes inviting Hodge and Mitchel here.

Mitchell showed his true colours over Pleb-gate. 

Hes a nasty piece of crap with an over inflated sense of self importance. 

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1 hour ago, Donald Trumps said:

Surely a couple of dodgy dorks on the backbenches of Westminster parliament commons chamber cannot over-rule a 'Letter of Entrustment' for God's sake Barry - what is the world coming to?

Interestingly, whilst Bazza states Tynwald is not sovereign, the City of London apparently is & Commons can't legislate for it

They even have a bod with his/her own chair behind that of Mr Speaker who keeps 'ears open' & can tap him on the shoulder if necessary

How can we become a sovereign 'corporation' Barry?

Tynwald is sovereign on the IOM but within the context of being subject to British sovereignty and the Crown Dependency relationship...

Now, the City of London is not sovereign and someone is extracting the urine in raising the spectre of some fellow sitting behind Mr Speaker's chair in the Commons like a theatrical prompt corner keeping him in line.

The "City" is the Square Mile or basically the original area of the walled city. Today it is the Corporation of London with Lord Mayor, Aldermen and Common Council..Freemen and Liverymen It is assumed to be incorporated simply because it is so old and rich. Basically it is like any other City just older.

It has the right to alter its own constitution. It has its own police force and overall it is a bit like the IOM in that there are the odd little constitutional oddities here and there.

However, national legislation exists to make sure that at times the City is just like any London borough. It is certainly not sovereign and not a City State like the Vatican. There is mention of the City in Magna Carta but overall it is just local government in a unique part of the London area with its Mansion House, Lord Mayor and Lord Mayor's Parade. 

It is not immune from the legislation as shall be passed by Parliament. 

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52 minutes ago, gettafa said:

Hodge & Mitchell are powerful backbenchers. They know what they are doing and are seasoned parliamentarians who gain support first. From those backbenches they would have trounced the Government.

The Government are on Isle of Man side here, hence the amendment was pulled (for now). 

Gripe in this matter is not with the Government, more with the will of Parliament. It was a waste of time and canapes inviting Hodge and Mitchel here.

The amendment was pulled because there was a risk it would not have been passed and as May expects to lose at least three votes very soon she did not need a fourth!

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4 hours ago, Donald Trumps said:

Surely a couple of dodgy dorks on the backbenches of Westminster parliament commons chamber cannot over-rule a 'Letter of Entrustment' for God's sake Barry - what is the world coming to?

Interestingly, whilst Bazza states Tynwald is not sovereign, the City of London apparently is & Commons can't legislate for it

They even have a bod with his/her own chair behind that of Mr Speaker who keeps 'ears open' & can tap him on the shoulder if necessary

How can we become a sovereign 'corporation' Barry?

A couple of MPs can't on their own, but if most of the opposition Parties and some influential government backbenchers support something when the government doesn't have a majority, then the arithmetic means that it might happen and it's very difficult to get something through if such a coalition oppose it.  As the Brexit shenanigans of the last few months tell us. 

The City of London isn't sovereign and Parliament does have to legislate for it, but the City Remembrancer does have all sort of ways to influence laws and he is not only a lawyer but has a team of six to help him.  Add to that the lobbying might of the City and its businesses and all those part-time jobs for MPs and full-time ones held by politicians' spouses, children, parents, friends etc, then collectively it's a very powerful operation and has been since Tudor times[1].

As to how the Island could get in a similar position - well stick around for 800 years, just a couple of miles down the road from Parliament and have lots of money.  Tynwald manages the history, but not the geography or the finance.

 

[1]  Presumably before then  Parliament and the Commons in particular weren't really powerful enough to be worth a permanent presence (though the City always had MPs) and the effort went to lobbying the monarch directly.

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3 hours ago, thesultanofsheight said:

Mitchell showed his true colours over Pleb-gate. 

Hes a nasty piece of crap with an over inflated sense of self importance. 

Correct assessment but no less dangerous for the Isle of Man.

 

3 hours ago, Barrie Stevens said:

with its Mansion House, Lord Mayor and Lord Mayor's Parade. 

 

*snigger*

Is that where we took likes of advocates with the politicians and metaphorically waved our willies round at the dinner. Pissed all over the table too probably. Metaphorically speaking that is. 

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15 minutes ago, gettafa said:

Correct assessment but no less dangerous for the Isle of Man.

 

*snigger*

Is that where we took likes of advocates with the politicians and metaphorically waved our willies round at the dinner. Pissed all over the table too probably. Metaphorically speaking that is. 

The Island hosted a reception there..

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