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The 'Trans' Issue.


quilp
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3 hours ago, wrighty said:

Pathetic effort. You sometimes post reasonable stuff, but this attempt at Viz style euphemism was not your best in what has been a relatively informed thread. 

I don’t post on here to appease you or Declan. I have my views you have yours. That post was somebody getting worked up about nothing

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5 minutes ago, Passing Time said:

I don’t post on here to appease you or Declan. I have my views you have yours. That post was somebody getting worked up about nothing

I understand that, but don’t tar me with the same brush as Declan - he thinks Queen are shit, and I don’t want to be associated with that. 
 

Having said that, cheap jibes (that are way beyond ‘banter’) don’t improve the level of debate. We all have our views, and if we disagree with others’ it’s better to explain why than just having a pop. 

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12 minutes ago, wrighty said:

I understand that, but don’t tar me with the same brush as Declan - he thinks Queen are shit, and I don’t want to be associated with that. 
 

Having said that, cheap jibes (that are way beyond ‘banter’) don’t improve the level of debate. We all have our views, and if we disagree with others’ it’s better to explain why than just having a pop. 

Agreed but some people take themselves way too seriously

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19 hours ago, HeliX said:

Is there any fathomable evidence that would make you reconsider your position that trans women are "men in dresses"?

Not sure the rest makes sense - men are already in a considerably better position than women in terms of empowerment. Becoming a woman and hijacking the "female empowerment agenda" would be a step down.

Well I obviously don't think that all trans women are men in dresses, but hijacking the feminist movement; there is an element of that.  The patriarchal society is realistically dead now in the western world and white heterosexual males (with a penis) are the only people that can be discriminated against.  However, everyone wants to be a victim now, be different or have some reason to stand on their soapbox and express their outrage.  This gives some people the platform to enable them to do this.  

Female parity is something that has very recently (almost) become a reality.  This then dilutes their cause, no longer are they the oppressed, now it's other further tinier and tinier proportions of the population, who generally shout the loudest. 

It seems that much of the vicious baying pro-trans mob are MTF.  They certainly seem to be the most vocal and aggressive and downright dangerous, cancelling people, threatening violence etc to women (generally) who express such outrageous statements that 'women don't have a penis' (10 years ago, who would have thought that would be so outrageous a statement). 

It actually makes me feel sorry for women and also the trans community who just want to get on with it.  Or even the FTMs who you virtually never hear anything from nor about. 

But honestly I don't care if Steve wants to wear a dress and be called Stephanie.  However if Stephanie still has a penis, they/he/she (fuck knows) should be using a toilet/changing room etc for other individuals also with a penis.

Written by a white heterosexual male (who was a gay icon in Brazil for some reason), so I won't be outraged or offended by any views contrary to my own. 

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5 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

The patriarchal society is realistically dead now in the western world and white heterosexual males (with a penis) are the only people that can be discriminated against. 

Surely you don't actually believe that? Have you ever felt discriminated against as a white heterosexual man? I know I haven't. And I certainly feel like I have a lot of societal benefits from being one.

Quote

But honestly I don't care if Steve wants to wear a dress and be called Stephanie.  However if Stephanie still has a penis, they/he/she (fuck knows) should be using a toilet/changing room etc for other individuals also with a penis.

Why? I mean my preference would be that changing rooms and toilets are all just cubicle style anyway, because then the problem goes away. But putting a female-presenting person in the male changing rooms isn't really great?

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4 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Written by a white heterosexual male (who was a gay icon in Brazil for some reason), so I won't be outraged or offended by any views contrary to my own. 

A group of us went to Gran Canaria for a holiday many years ago. The wives discovered this tea room that sold amazing cakes. It was also frequented by a large number of gay men. The wives were glared at and we were smiled at and offered seats at their tables. we found it hilarious

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10 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Surely you don't actually believe that? Have you ever felt discriminated against as a white heterosexual man? I know I haven't. And I certainly feel like I have a lot of societal benefits from being one.

Why? I mean my preference would be that changing rooms and toilets are all just cubicle style anyway, because then the problem goes away. But putting a female-presenting person in the male changing rooms isn't really great?

Well, the patriarchal society is dying at least.  Numerous cases recently in the news about positive discrimination for the minorities against the majority.  Someone high up in diversity/recruitment the UK military quit because of unrealistic targets.  There didn't seem to be that many disabled black trans lesbians that want to sign up to the Army weirdly.  I've spent a large amount of time and have many friends in Africa.  If you're a white educated male is South Africa, unless you run your own business, getting employment is becoming harder and harder.  Is it justified knowing their apartheid history?  It's a tricky one, but it definitely happens and is one of the reasons there are so many Saffa expats. 

Why the toilets etc?  Well I have young daughters, I quite justifiably don't want them using facilities where an unexpected penis maybe encountered.  

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50 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Well, the patriarchal society is dying at least.  Numerous cases recently in the news about positive discrimination for the minorities against the majority.  Someone high up in diversity/recruitment the UK military quit because of unrealistic targets.  There didn't seem to be that many disabled black trans lesbians that want to sign up to the Army weirdly.  I've spent a large amount of time and have many friends in Africa.  If you're a white educated male is South Africa, unless you run your own business, getting employment is becoming harder and harder.  Is it justified knowing their apartheid history?  It's a tricky one, but it definitely happens and is one of the reasons there are so many Saffa expats. 

Why the toilets etc?  Well I have young daughters, I quite justifiably don't want them using facilities where an unexpected penis maybe encountered.  

There's an in for a joke there but apparently not welcome on this topic...

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8 hours ago, The Phantom said:

Well, the patriarchal society is dying at least.  Numerous cases recently in the news about positive discrimination for the minorities against the majority.  Someone high up in diversity/recruitment the UK military quit because of unrealistic targets.  There didn't seem to be that many disabled black trans lesbians that want to sign up to the Army weirdly.  I've spent a large amount of time and have many friends in Africa.  If you're a white educated male is South Africa, unless you run your own business, getting employment is becoming harder and harder.  Is it justified knowing their apartheid history?  It's a tricky one, but it definitely happens and is one of the reasons there are so many Saffa expats. 

Why the toilets etc?  Well I have young daughters, I quite justifiably don't want them using facilities where an unexpected penis maybe encountered.  

That isn’t happening tho. Short of your daughters peering under cubicle doors which I hope you have taught them is not a fantastic thing to do to anyone. Trans people make up 1% of the population. The chance of your daughters actually being in a toilet with one is very very low anyway. For me personally. I just wana pee and then figure out where I want to buy my next coffee.

Also, to answer your earlier comment about shouting the loudest. The reason it’s mainly M2F is because we are the ones being targeted. The reason trans people in general shout the loudest is because of all of the lies and bs that is being thrown at us. Policy makers and campaigners wanting to essentially remove us and our rights from society. Not all of us want to be in this fight. I can certainly think of fourteen other things I’d rather be doing. However, this is the world we live in.

Also. No one has been cancelled. Everyone who has claimed as much has done so to millions of fans and followers, released books, spoken at events and gatherings and otherwise made a loud general nuisance of themselves. That isn’t cancelled.

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7 hours ago, Chie said:

Also. No one has been cancelled. Everyone who has claimed as much has done so to millions of fans and followers, released books, spoken at events and gatherings and otherwise made a loud general nuisance of themselves. That isn’t cancelled.

It is easy to understand, however, why many people view the actions of trans campaigners as attempts to silence people with opinions that differ from theirs. The cancelled public appearances of leading feminists, the demonstrations targeting individuals etc all because those people hold different views seem, on the surface at least, to be attempts to prevent those views being heard. The fact that those individuals seek other ways to put their opinions across is hardly a surprise, and is surely an indication that trans campaigners tactics don't work terribly well, rather than indicating that there isn't any intention to cancel people. 

A prime example is Kathleen Stock, who's book Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism would probably have been read by a few hundred academics had it not been for the concerted campaign against her. The outcome is that she was hounded out of her career, and she sold many, many more books that she otherwise would. To someone who is not really affected by these issues (in any practical sense), but is trying to understand both sides of the argument, it seems like a bad tactic on the part of trans campaigners. It doesn't achieve what they (presumably) want - to prevent Kathleen Stock putting her views forward, and it gives the general public completely the wrong impression of the vast majority of the trans community.

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