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Ramsey Marina

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7 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

That's pretty much my whole point ( even if I haven't actually said so :D).

IOM has been relying on nefarious schemes (including VAT avoidance - nothing wrong with that) - But, it has wonderful opportunities for real business because of its geographical location but, for whatever reasons, chooses not to do so.

What planet are we on when we say to somebody willing to pay £200 a week to park a boat here that they are 'silly'!!!!!!!

I'm serious - what planet is that from?

The Island has public sector pension deficits to cover - and those same public sector pension recipients are telling people willing to pay £10,000p.a. to park a boat to feck off!

What planet?

I think Dilli belongs to that curious Manx breed that would rather people sent money here but didn’t come near the place. Inward investment doesn’t work that way

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9 hours ago, MrPB said:

I agree about us needing real businesses over ‘schemes’ that’s about the only way forward we can have now with greater moves looking at economic substance. If this is a private development I really have no issue. It won’t happen though would be my guess due to the usual myopic troglodytes. Those holiday lodges up North were quashed pretty quickly by a similar attitude. 

The issue with a £100m project is that you can end up with something 1/3 built, which then collapses, adding to the whole despair effect. 

If this goes ahead - and good luck to them, IOMG must ensure it is wholly funded prior to build, and not relying on £50m of property sales to finish it.

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Oh buoy. After making waves and on a tide of controversy, land-lubber dilli throws his oar in and surfaces with a load of bilge. The swell of opinion gives a stern warning to those adrift, and not many hands agree with the cut of his jib but keeping an even keel and a steady hand on the tiller is difficult when one is all at sea. Lets hope he's becalmed, doesn't bow his head and sail off into the sunset, taking the idea on board rather than flounce away on a low ebb...

Edited by quilp
Any port in a storm.
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57 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

....and not relying on £50m of property sales to finish it.

Some of the luxury apartments built adjacent to the Park Hotel remain unsold. Ramsey Commissioners recently turned down a developer's request to buy their unsold new-build for social housing.

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12 hours ago, Cypman said:

All the 24 hour access marinas around the North Irish Sea are at or near full capacity.  The Isle of Man desperately needs one and it would bring huge financial benefits to the community.  

This new and imaginative proposal seems to be a positive move forward and appears to make financial sense. Hopefully, a positive attitude will be displayed by all !!

In what possible way does it make financial sense?!!!! 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the sentiment and like the idea, but at a cost of £100m it just won't fly.

 Simply speaking:-

maximus stated £350-£500 per meter annual berthing fees and his yacht 19m - so if we make some VERY generous assumptions that the 400 berth marina would be full all the time, average yacht length 20m (I fully admit I have no clue about such things) and say a price of £425/m being the midpoint 

400 berths x 20 meters x £425 = £3.4m p.a.

Marina operating costs p.a. ?? 

financing costs? £100m at 5% ---> £5m ??

return for investors?

It comes no-where near to passing even this back of a fag packet calculation!!! And of course that income can only arise when the thing is built, how are the construction costs financed in the 2/3 year construction time??

However, I do stand to be corrected and would love to be proved wrong...

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1 hour ago, b4mbi said:

In what possible way does it make financial sense?!!!! 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the sentiment and like the idea, but at a cost of £100m it just won't fly.

 Simply speaking:-

maximus stated £350-£500 per meter annual berthing fees and his yacht 19m - so if we make some VERY generous assumptions that the 400 berth marina would be full all the time, average yacht length 20m (I fully admit I have no clue about such things) and say a price of £425/m being the midpoint 

400 berths x 20 meters x £425 = £3.4m p.a.

Marina operating costs p.a. ?? 

financing costs? £100m at 5% ---> £5m ??

return for investors?

It comes no-where near to passing even this back of a fag packet calculation!!! And of course that income can only arise when the thing is built, how are the construction costs financed in the 2/3 year construction time??

However, I do stand to be corrected and would love to be proved wrong...

It's maybe £50M tops for the marina side to fund because half the development would be residential property which would be sold / leased. Rental of the berths is merely the start, you then supply shore power, boat security & mooring checks as a service, sailing lessons, chandlery, boat maintenance & servicing, sailing club bar & restaurant, yacht brokerage etc. Basically a little goldmine for extracting dosh from well-heeled boaty people for whom you either provide services or let out on-site premises so that others can provide services.

Dunno any of the detail of the Ramsey proposal, but in any private sector marina the berth rental is merely the tip of the iceberg, so I think you can assume the marina element of the proposal would have half the financing costs and double the income potential at worst case (and if not it wouldn't be worth doing).

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1 hour ago, b4mbi said:

In what possible way does it make financial sense?!!!! 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the sentiment and like the idea, but at a cost of £100m it just won't fly.

 Simply speaking:-

maximus stated £350-£500 per meter annual berthing fees and his yacht 19m - so if we make some VERY generous assumptions that the 400 berth marina would be full all the time, average yacht length 20m (I fully admit I have no clue about such things) and say a price of £425/m being the midpoint 

400 berths x 20 meters x £425 = £3.4m p.a.

Marina operating costs p.a. ?? 

financing costs? £100m at 5% ---> £5m ??

return for investors?

It comes no-where near to passing even this back of a fag packet calculation!!! And of course that income can only arise when the thing is built, how are the construction costs financed in the 2/3 year construction time??

However, I do stand to be corrected and would love to be proved wrong...

Have you looked at the proposal. the £100 million includes housing, apartments, shops and restaurants. The apartments and houses will be sold off, recouping a substantial sum

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2 hours ago, b4mbi said:

In what possible way does it make financial sense?!!!! 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the sentiment and like the idea, but at a cost of £100m it just won't fly.

 Simply speaking:-

maximus stated £350-£500 per meter annual berthing fees and his yacht 19m - so if we make some VERY generous assumptions that the 400 berth marina would be full all the time, average yacht length 20m (I fully admit I have no clue about such things) and say a price of £425/m being the midpoint 

400 berths x 20 meters x £425 = £3.4m p.a.

Marina operating costs p.a. ?? 

financing costs? £100m at 5% ---> £5m ??

return for investors?

It comes no-where near to passing even this back of a fag packet calculation!!! And of course that income can only arise when the thing is built, how are the construction costs financed in the 2/3 year construction time??

However, I do stand to be corrected and would love to be proved wrong...

looking around the various harbours on the Island, I would suggest that 20 metre average is extremely generous and unlikely. Average length is nearer to 12 metres

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27 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Have you looked at the proposal. the £100 million includes housing, apartments, shops and restaurants. The apartments and houses will be sold off, recouping a substantial sum

Yes I've looked at the proposal, and realise it's also a property play, but still struggling to see how the figures will possibly work.

I fully agree that the Island needs  24/7 non-tidal leisure yacht berthing facilities.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

The issue with a £100m project is that you can end up with something 1/3 built, which then collapses, adding to the whole despair effect. 

If this goes ahead - and good luck to them, IOMG must ensure it is wholly funded prior to build, and not relying on £50m of property sales to finish it.

Absolutely agree. You beat me to it. IOMG must ensure there's a least some sort of a bond sufficient to cover the actual completion of the harbour structure itself, so that the taxpayer is not required to stump up the shortfall if, for whatever reason, the most important part is not completed.

I would love this project to succeed. However, I don't know of any other infrastructure project of this size that has ever been undertaken in living memory by private enterprise on Mann, only those completed by IOMG. Also, isn't there something about Crown ownership and public rights of way on a foreshore? JW??      

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6 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

Absolutely agree. You beat me to it. IOMG must ensure there's a least some sort of a bond sufficient to cover the actual completion of the harbour structure itself, so that the taxpayer is not required to stump up the shortfall if, for whatever reason, the most important part is not completed.

I would love this project to succeed. However, I don't know of any other infrastructure project of this size that has ever been undertaken in living memory by private enterprise on Mann, only those completed by IOMG. Also, isn't there something about Crown ownership and public rights of way on a foreshore? JW??      

There are some pompous idiots who think they have a "private" beach.

The truth is actually something of a "grey" area according to The Ramblers Association. It's generally thought that up to the maximum high tide line is property of The Crown. Although whether or not its actual or Chart Datum I have no idea.

I just thought I would save everyone some bandwidth by getting in before Barrie.....

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With this and a new harbour in Douglas is this the way to go now for the island? Is this the new aerospace/film/biomed market which will save the manx economy?

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1 hour ago, P.K. said:

There are some pompous idiots who think they have a "private" beach.

The truth is actually something of a "grey" area according to The Ramblers Association. It's generally thought that up to the maximum high tide line is property of The Crown. Although whether or not its actual or Chart Datum I have no idea.

I just thought I would save everyone some bandwidth by getting in before Barrie.....

In the UK The Crown owns ~55% of the foreshore and grants permissive access. Most of the foreshore down here belongs to the Duchy while also grants access. Some is private and you can't get to it anyway.

So - if Mrs. Windsor as Lord of Mann owns the foreshore then I guess permissive access is granted but I'm probably wrong, very hard to get a definitive ruling on foreshore access in the UK.

Edited by GD4ELI

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It was transferred to IoM in 1911, I think, and ended up with Harbour Board. Who owned what was explored in Crookall v Harbour Board, years ago, which related to Derbyhaven.

Think it’s DoI nowadays that owns from median to seaward, and then the landward owner from the land down to the median.

Where the land is a public road then it’s the DoI, as road owner.

Not sure about Ramsey, but in Porr Erin I think DoI licences the beach to the Commissioners.

Harbours are different again and ownership is covered by the Harbours Act. But essentially DoI. 

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12 minutes ago, John Wright said:

It was transferred to IoM in 1911, I think, and ended up with Harbour Board. Who owned what was explored in Crookall v Harbour Board, years ago, which related to Derbyhaven.

Think it’s DoI nowadays that owns from median to seaward, and then the landward owner from the land down to the median.

Where the land is a public road then it’s the DoI, as road owner.

Not sure about Ramsey, but in Porr Erin I think DoI licences the beach to the Commissioners.

Harbours are different again and ownership is covered by the Harbours Act. But essentially DoI. 

Quite a sensible solution.

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