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Donald Trumps

Year Of Our Island

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9 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Brown always gave the impression that he couldn't quite believe his luck that he had managed to end up where he did, whereas Quayle seems completely convinced that he is fully entitled to be where he is and is coping absolutely magnificently.  And whatever you could say about Brown, although he wasn't clever he had a sort of basic cunning that enabled him to survive in post (look at the manoeuvring he went through to become CM).  The same thing applied to Gelling and to Bell, who wasn't as clever as he thought he was but could still put on a reasonably competent show. 

But Quayle is simply there because he was seen as the most malleable of the possible candidates by the civil service, the one who would change as little as possible.  The only problem they have with him is that his complete lack of self-awareness means that he sometimes tries to do things himself, convinced by his own genius, which means that it turns out even more embarrassing[1] than it would have been if he'd followed the script.  Mercifully his innate laziness means this doesn't happen more often than it does.

 

[1]  We all know what schadenfreude means, but there's an equally useful German word Fremdschämen, which means embarrassment at someone else's behaviour.  We should have been using it a lot over the last few years.

That’s a very well-worded analysis of both Brown and Quayle. Brown did indeed have a certain low cunning, well-matched to the gauche amateurism of Manx politics. And yes, Bell was no genius but he was streets ahead of Quayle who probably has “L” and “R” on his shoes. The only view you offer Rog, which I think is open to some question, is whether the malleable Quayle was the choice of the civil service or of Tynwald itself. (For the reasons you state). I suspect the latter, but in Agatha Christie style, it may well have been both. And thanks for educating me...I was not aware of Fremdschamen. I shall deploy it liberally. It should also be recorded on Quayle’s headstone, when the time comes.

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Mr Speaker denies he will be making a bid for the CM role

But I anticipate maneuvers

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Can Dr Allinson obtain the Keys support to push JW aside?

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31 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said:

Mr Speaker denies he will be making a bid for the CM role

But I anticipate maneuvers

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Can Dr Allinson obtain the Keys support to push JW aside?

What you talkin about Willis? Has someone quit?

JW has no intention of being CM, not ever. He's smarter than that. Allinson will walk it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Donald Trumps said:

Mr Quayle has promised to stand down when Brexit is over

Perhaps he knows that's 28 years away.

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1 hour ago, maynragh said:

What you talkin about Willis? Has someone quit?

JW has no intention of being CM, not ever. He's smarter than that. Allinson will walk it. 

 

I agree. If it came to a head-to-head between JW and AA, despite JW's Ministerial experience and Speakership, I think (the current) Tynwald would opt for AA.

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37 minutes ago, Uhtred said:

I agree. If it came to a head-to-head between JW and AA, despite JW's Ministerial experience and Speakership, I think (the current) Tynwald would opt for AA.

AA is as malleable as all the others. 

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14 hours ago, Uhtred said:

That’s a very well-worded analysis of both Brown and Quayle. Brown did indeed have a certain low cunning, well-matched to the gauche amateurism of Manx politics. And yes, Bell was no genius but he was streets ahead of Quayle who probably has “L” and “R” on his shoes. The only view you offer Rog, which I think is open to some question, is whether the malleable Quayle was the choice of the civil service or of Tynwald itself. (For the reasons you state). I suspect the latter, but in Agatha Christie style, it may well have been both. And thanks for educating me...I was not aware of Fremdschamen. I shall deploy it liberally. It should also be recorded on Quayle’s headstone, when the time comes.

He was definitely Tynwald's 'man' but Christ knows why

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26 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

AA is as malleable as all the others. 

Oh no he isn't

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14 hours ago, Uhtred said:

The only view you offer Rog, which I think is open to some question, is whether the malleable Quayle was the choice of the civil service or of Tynwald itself. (For the reasons you state). I suspect the latter, but in Agatha Christie style, it may well have been both. And thanks for educating me...I was not aware of Fremdschamen. I shall deploy it liberally. It should also be recorded on Quayle’s headstone, when the time comes.

I think it was a bit of both as well.  No doubt a lot of muttering about "a safe pair of hands" in the right ears and promises of ministerial office.  And of course the unanimous vote of LegCo for Quayle was organised to put him over the line.

As to Fremdschamen it should of course appear on every other headstone in the cemetery as the dead cringe in their graves at their new neighbour. 

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13 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

 And of course the unanimous vote of LegCo for Quayle was organised to put him over the line.

In a portfolio of options that leaves us spoilt for choice, that stitch-up is probably the biggest stain on Tynwald in the modern era.

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19 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

I think it was a bit of both as well.  No doubt a lot of muttering about "a safe pair of hands" in the right ears and promises of ministerial office.  And of course the unanimous vote of LegCo for Quayle was organised to put him over the line.

As to Fremdschamen it should of course appear on every other headstone in the cemetery as the dead cringe in their graves at their new neighbour. 

Actually it was the President of Tynwald who failed to allow the Keys to reach a majority

Which is one of the reasons why Rodan has to go

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2 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said:

Actually it was the President of Tynwald who failed to allow the Keys to reach a majority

Which is one of the reasons why Rodan has to go

Technically that's not quite right because the rules wouldn't have allowed the Keys to vote again before LegCo did.  What he could have done is suggest to LegCo that they all spoil their papers and then have the Keys vote again.  Of course if Beecroft's three votes had then transferred to Cannan there would still have been no solution, but it would have looked less dodgy given that they had sort of  promised that LegCo wouldn't swing the result. 

Of course the best way to fix it would be have LegCo popularly elected, so they have the same legitimacy as Keys members, but that's one thing that seems inconceivable to the current lot. 

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I don't why - with so many Keys members in government, something has to happen. There must be a challenging opposition

Personally I'd like to see a trial of MLCs directly elected on a national basis

If the Keys won't do that then Government membership should be limited to eleven members and LegCo abolished

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27 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Technically that's not quite right because the rules wouldn't have allowed the Keys to vote again before LegCo did.  What he could have done is suggest to LegCo that they all spoil their papers and then have the Keys vote again.  Of course if Beecroft's three votes had then transferred to Cannan there would still have been no solution, but it would have looked less dodgy given that they had sort of  promised that LegCo wouldn't swing the result. 

Of course the best way to fix it would be have LegCo popularly elected, so they have the same legitimacy as Keys members, but that's one thing that seems inconceivable to the current lot. 

Totally agree. Tynwald determines policy and finances. All members must be equal in Tynwald. LegCo and Keys are just legislative branches.

Theres no reason, in scrutinising and passing legislation that a second chamber, however elected, has only delaying powers and that there is a mechanism to resolve a dispute.

What we are seeing in suggestions to scrap LegCo, stop members from being Ministers, pay them less, is just a power bid by the Keys. Unfortunately Lisvane appeared not to grasp any of this. The Keys don’t want a popularly elected Council. It challenges their perceived supremacy, legitimacy and power base.

It all overlooks that our government system is institutionally corrupt, in the sense that most Tynwald members are on the government payroll with pay supplements for belonging to departments or board or statutory bodies or agencies. Whatever the reality it doesn’t give the impression of independence of scrutiny, transparency and holding to account.

A party political or common platform group at elections would help. So would limiting each department to one political member, the minister. All the select and other committees should be appointed by, and membership come from, Tynwald excluding CoMin, so that CoMin loses its patronage.

Its important not to fall into the trap of constituting LegCo as the opposition. That’s not it’s purpose. Down that route is disaster. I often read, here and elsewhere, suggestions that we have too many members in Tynwald. To have sufficient pool of talent to elect a Chief Minister and CoMin and the Chair and members of each Standing, Select or other Committee to allow proper scrutiny, there is a need for a decent number.

My favoured solution is 8 x 4 seat constituencies, with one member from each being allocated to LegCo after each election. Could even be done by lot.

in case of dispute between Keys & Council voting on the legislation should be by Tynwald, say twice in 6 months, with a special majority, That could be 2/3, ie 22 votes or 3/4, ie 24 votes. You could require at least 2, or 3 LegCo to be included in the majority.

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