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2 hours ago, WTF said:

bean counters don't work for health. everything is cost based rather than care based.

Who said anything about bean counters? Accountants may also be competent leaders but the two skillsets are quite separate and I prefer leaders to focus on leadership, that way the integrity of the organisational leadership is less corrupted by the inevitable conflict of resource availability. Bean counting is a job for the accountant not the leader.

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I recently read a book on forensic linguistics. An interesting, and somewhat surprising fact, is that a string of as few as eight words is likely to be unique. So if you ever want to find out if something has been copied, a google search with such a string in quotation marks will generally turn up the source document. 

Plagiarists beware. 

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3 hours ago, craggy_steve said:

Who said anything about bean counters? Accountants may also be competent leaders but the two skillsets are quite separate and I prefer leaders to focus on leadership, that way the integrity of the organisational leadership is less corrupted by the inevitable conflict of resource availability. Bean counting is a job for the accountant not the leader.

Accountants have been some of the worst business leaders I’ve seen in many cases. 

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Accountants make very good 'second in command' type people

But they are not leaders

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21 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said:

Accountants make very good 'second in command' type people

But they are not leaders

Most accountants aren't people persons. Something to do with the autism i think.

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15 hours ago, craggy_steve said:

They keep hiring folk brought up in the UK NHS / state health system. Unfortunately much of the UK NHS is seriously broken and the UK doesn't know what to do about that except throw more cash at it.

Our NHS needs to be run by some top-class leaders from outside the health sector, people who really excel at leadership - they don't need to be health professionals they simply need to empower the real health professionals to be able to do their jobs effectively and efficiently.

But but but... How do they keep employing such terrible terrible people? 

I'm genuinely baffled. Having been an employer I fully appreciate how difficult it can be to make selections, and that there is a fair amount of luck involved. But if it is almost immediately obvious to all in close proximity that someone is completely unsuited to a position, and if it is then relatively easy to discover (with no formal justification to do so) that said individual has a known history of being forcibly ejected - how do these people keep going? Where does the buck for this sort of failing stop?

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15 hours ago, craggy_steve said:

They keep hiring folk brought up in the UK NHS / state health system. Unfortunately much of the UK NHS is seriously broken and the UK doesn't know what to do about that except throw more cash at it.

Our NHS needs to be run by some top-class leaders from outside the health sector, people who really excel at leadership - they don't need to be health professionals they simply need to empower the real health professionals to be able to do their jobs effectively and efficiently.

But they must be really good leaders - they've got certificates and everything.  Michaela Morris has even got an MSc in Leadership - that means she must be a really good leader, surely?

There are a lot of problems with what you might call leadership culture in Britain and beyond generally and they're not restricted to the NHS or indeed to the public sector.  Indeed many of the worst characteristics have been imported from the private sector over the last 40-50 years:

There is the tendency for successful managers to manage 'up' rather than 'down' - that pleasing those above you is more important than getting the best out of those you manage. 

There is the belief in generalism - that you don't really need to know how the industry or field you work in operates - you just need to be a 'good manager'. 

There is the rise of Human Resources and the belief that dealing with people is a minor part of a manager's job to be outsourced, rather than the core of what they do.  And HR also means that the recruitment and assessment of managers becomes a box-ticking exercise with what looks good on paper always being the priority (and a good excuse what things go wrong).

And, maybe most important, there is the belief that management is all about words rather than actions.  About producing reports rather than getting things done.  Look at the way that plagiarised leaflet could magically be explained away by claiming that it wasn't a 'strategy' it was a 'vision'.   So it could be held to any sort of account at all - and neither could its (non-) author.

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1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

But they must be really good leaders - they've got certificates and everything.  Michaela Morris has even got an MSc in Leadership - that means she must be a really good leader, surely?

There are a lot of problems with what you might call leadership culture in Britain and beyond generally and they're not restricted to the NHS or indeed to the public sector.  Indeed many of the worst characteristics have been imported from the private sector over the last 40-50 years:

There is the tendency for successful managers to manage 'up' rather than 'down' - that pleasing those above you is more important than getting the best out of those you manage. 

There is the belief in generalism - that you don't really need to know how the industry or field you work in operates - you just need to be a 'good manager'. 

There is the rise of Human Resources and the belief that dealing with people is a minor part of a manager's job to be outsourced, rather than the core of what they do.  And HR also means that the recruitment and assessment of managers becomes a box-ticking exercise with what looks good on paper always being the priority (and a good excuse what things go wrong).

And, maybe most important, there is the belief that management is all about words rather than actions.  About producing reports rather than getting things done.  Look at the way that plagiarised leaflet could magically be explained away by claiming that it wasn't a 'strategy' it was a 'vision'.   So it could be held to any sort of account at all - and neither could its (non-) author.

That was sort of where I was heading. 

A fundamental problem with the basic philosophy of how you run an organisation - a problem no politician has the answer for / power to deal with?

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In my experience internationally UK managers have a reputation for being rubbish.

One of the fundamental issues seems to be that that in the UK you only need to put an appalling brown-noser on a training course and hey presto! They're a manager...

Managers like that do not inspire their people by example, vision, nurturing, encouraging or rewarding. All they do is brown-nose the next level. After all, it worked before...

Managers cannot inspire. All they can do is manage.

Leaders, on the other hand, can achieve things that managers can only dream of....

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6 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

But they must be really good leaders - they've got certificates and everything.  Michaela Morris has even got an MSc in Leadership - that means she must be a really good leader, surely?

There are a lot of problems with what you might call leadership culture in Britain and beyond generally and they're not restricted to the NHS or indeed to the public sector.  Indeed many of the worst characteristics have been imported from the private sector over the last 40-50 years:

There is the tendency for successful managers to manage 'up' rather than 'down' - that pleasing those above you is more important than getting the best out of those you manage. 

There is the belief in generalism - that you don't really need to know how the industry or field you work in operates - you just need to be a 'good manager'. 

There is the rise of Human Resources and the belief that dealing with people is a minor part of a manager's job to be outsourced, rather than the core of what they do.  And HR also means that the recruitment and assessment of managers becomes a box-ticking exercise with what looks good on paper always being the priority (and a good excuse what things go wrong).

And, maybe most important, there is the belief that management is all about words rather than actions.  About producing reports rather than getting things done.  Look at the way that plagiarised leaflet could magically be explained away by claiming that it wasn't a 'strategy' it was a 'vision'.   So it could be held to any sort of account at all - and neither could its (non-) author.

Where did I mention "management"? Leadership and management are quite different. Ideally one wants managers who also lead, and leaders who can also manage, but the tone, enthusiasm, vision, culture etc. of an organisation is (should be) set by the leadership abilities of the folk at the top, not their management abilities. It's a simple but very difficult distinction, one can be a competent manager but not a leader, and vice versa. One can also be "qualified" in either or both - demonstrate to examiners that one understands the theory - without the actual innate ability / personality attributes to actually be good at either. 

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2 hours ago, craggy_steve said:

Where did I mention "management"? Leadership and management are quite different. Ideally one wants managers who also lead, and leaders who can also manage, but the tone, enthusiasm, vision, culture etc. of an organisation is (should be) set by the leadership abilities of the folk at the top, not their management abilities. It's a simple but very difficult distinction, one can be a competent manager but not a leader, and vice versa. One can also be "qualified" in either or both - demonstrate to examiners that one understands the theory - without the actual innate ability / personality attributes to actually be good at either. 

So basically what you're saying is we pick the wrong leaders... :rolleyes:

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10 hours ago, maynragh said:

So basically what you're saying is we pick the wrong leaders... :rolleyes:

Managers are ( unfortunately ) very easy to make. Which is why the UK has so many managers who are truly dreadful.

Leaders are ( unfortunately ) very difficult to make. Which is why the UK has so many managers who are truly dreadful.

So ideally you find someone in the organisation who can lead and make them into a manager. But being a leader they probably couldn't be arsed to become a manager when so many managers are so awful.

But essentially leaders pick themselves.

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