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Promenade - Megathread


slinkydevil
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I suspect trying to 'charitise' the trams is an impractical idea that won't happen.  As already noted, we've been here before with the Villa/Gaiety and there were no takers either commercial or volunteer, and that was in more friendly times for such ideas.

To see why times are less friendly, you only have to look at the news.  We've seen Graih announce it was closing, not because of lack of money but because of lack of volunteers and inability to recruit paid staff (any charity-run solution would certainly need some paid staff).  And there are regular announcement that long-standing charities and sports clubs are or are considering closing.  The problem never seem to be money, but lack of people, especially to serve on committees and in responsible roles.

Some of this is self-inflicted by the Government.  Since the AG's Chambers took over control of charities, bureaucracy and red tape has increased and become much more difficult to navigate.  As ever the intention isn't to make things work smoothly, but to provide more work for lawyers.  The excuse is to prevent abuse, but in practice it's about seeing to be doing something which the more serious abuses still thrive in Athol Street.  But the additional paperwork and legal responsibility mean that people are less willing to continue serving running charities and it's much more difficult to recruit new people to take on such positions.

But there are other demographic factors as well.  Charities often rely on the retired and if you increase retirement age (especially for women) then there are fewer years of retirement for people to give.  And younger volunteers are not just a smaller pool at the moment, rising costs and especially rent mean they have less free time and money to contribute and are less able to take up low-paid and stressful charity jobs.

There will be an additional problem with the horse trams.  Most preserved lines run away from other traffic, not through the middle of it.  This leads to all sorts of potential legal and practical problems and clashes of priority.  Even without the increases in red tape, no charity is likely to be willing to take on the responsibility without all sorts of subsidies and legal and financial indemnities.

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5 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

There will be an additional problem with the horse trams.  Most preserved lines run away from other traffic, not through the middle of it.  This leads to all sorts of potential legal and practical problems and clashes of priority.  Even without the increases in red tape, no charity is likely to be willing to take on the responsibility without all sorts of subsidies and legal and financial indemnities.

I agree with you there. They’ve made the potential liabilities of running the tram service a lot higher for any operator with the new layout. That may even be the reason why they no longer want to operate it themselves. When a car takes out a tram full of old biddies at the cross over by the Empress it’s going to be very expensive.

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1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

I suspect trying to 'charitise' the trams is an impractical idea that won't happen.  As already noted, we've been here before with the Villa/Gaiety and there were no takers either commercial or volunteer, and that was in more friendly times for such ideas.

To see why times are less friendly, you only have to look at the news.  We've seen Graih announce it was closing, not because of lack of money but because of lack of volunteers and inability to recruit paid staff (any charity-run solution would certainly need some paid staff).  And there are regular announcement that long-standing charities and sports clubs are or are considering closing.  The problem never seem to be money, but lack of people, especially to serve on committees and in responsible roles.

Some of this is self-inflicted by the Government.  Since the AG's Chambers took over control of charities, bureaucracy and red tape has increased and become much more difficult to navigate.  As ever the intention isn't to make things work smoothly, but to provide more work for lawyers.  The excuse is to prevent abuse, but in practice it's about seeing to be doing something which the more serious abuses still thrive in Athol Street.  But the additional paperwork and legal responsibility mean that people are less willing to continue serving running charities and it's much more difficult to recruit new people to take on such positions.

But there are other demographic factors as well.  Charities often rely on the retired and if you increase retirement age (especially for women) then there are fewer years of retirement for people to give.  And younger volunteers are not just a smaller pool at the moment, rising costs and especially rent mean they have less free time and money to contribute and are less able to take up low-paid and stressful charity jobs.

There will be an additional problem with the horse trams.  Most preserved lines run away from other traffic, not through the middle of it.  This leads to all sorts of potential legal and practical problems and clashes of priority.  Even without the increases in red tape, no charity is likely to be willing to take on the responsibility without all sorts of subsidies and legal and financial indemnities.

Not sure where the correlation is with the VillaGaiety and heritage transport. They are two entirely different types of operation both with different types of customers and requirements.

And I don't think the Graih announcement as it has been reported is entirely truthful, not from conversations that I have heard anyway.

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who in their right mind will want to get involved with the horse trams  DOI has screwed everything up , no certainty if the track will ever run the full length of the promenade again , or future Tynwald funding  and now subject to off Island railways inspection and regulation , 

huge vets bills and food to be found  for the horses in the winter  I think Chris Thomas has a cheek to even suggest  this as an option , his own department is an utter disaster  as a Douglas MHK I think he is a bloody disgrace !

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2 hours ago, 0bserver said:

If they hand them over to another group or company, the transaction needs a clause in it that the trams don't run when the TT course is closed.

Yes the last thing people will be wanting is to run a tourist attraction when there are lots of tourists around.

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4 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Yes the last thing people will be wanting is to run a tourist attraction when there are lots of tourists around.

The tourists aren't around the prom when the roads are closed because (surprisingly) 99% of them are around the TT Course watching the racing. 

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I see the storms have ripped to shreds the corporations Celtic  style  decorative hangings that  were suspended from the street lights on the prom , they must have ratepayers money to burn these boys , and its not as if no one know the gale was approaching and time to either make them secure  or take them down for the winter , I wonder how much almost 2 miles  or decorative panel on each street light cost ? and how long they will be left in tatters ,

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On 9/29/2022 at 10:44 AM, Roger Mexico said:

I suspect trying to 'charitise' the trams is an impractical idea that won't happen.  As already noted, we've been here before with the Villa/Gaiety and there were no takers either commercial or volunteer, and that was in more friendly times for such ideas.

To see why times are less friendly, you only have to look at the news.  We've seen Graih announce it was closing, not because of lack of money but because of lack of volunteers and inability to recruit paid staff (any charity-run solution would certainly need some paid staff).  And there are regular announcement that long-standing charities and sports clubs are or are considering closing.  The problem never seem to be money, but lack of people, especially to serve on committees and in responsible roles.

Some of this is self-inflicted by the Government.  Since the AG's Chambers took over control of charities, bureaucracy and red tape has increased and become much more difficult to navigate.  As ever the intention isn't to make things work smoothly, but to provide more work for lawyers.  The excuse is to prevent abuse, but in practice it's about seeing to be doing something which the more serious abuses still thrive in Athol Street.  But the additional paperwork and legal responsibility mean that people are less willing to continue serving running charities and it's much more difficult to recruit new people to take on such positions.

But there are other demographic factors as well.  Charities often rely on the retired and if you increase retirement age (especially for women) then there are fewer years of retirement for people to give.  And younger volunteers are not just a smaller pool at the moment, rising costs and especially rent mean they have less free time and money to contribute and are less able to take up low-paid and stressful charity jobs.

There will be an additional problem with the horse trams.  Most preserved lines run away from other traffic, not through the middle of it.  This leads to all sorts of potential legal and practical problems and clashes of priority.  Even without the increases in red tape, no charity is likely to be willing to take on the responsibility without all sorts of subsidies and legal and financial indemnities.

I would add re Graih that recruiting volunteers will be difficult particularly as the extent of the social, emotional and psychological issues that will be inherent in their clients becomes apparent with no mental health support from Manx Care.  

Add to that the recent (and right) criticism from the Coroner's Court about the lack of  proper care for youngsters leaving prison/the care system.  Why would you rush to fill the void knowing that if something terrible happens, you will be a convenient patsy for the lack of proper provision by the party who should really be providing it? 

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3 hours ago, NoTail said:

It is a pity to see the damage.  The planners probably did not know our promenade can get windy 

A flagrant and irresponsible use of a word there, No Tail.  The tenth word is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. 

 

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On 9/29/2022 at 2:58 PM, 0bserver said:

The tourists aren't around the prom when the roads are closed because (surprisingly) 99% of them are around the TT Course watching the racing. 

I wouldn't worry about it. I have it on very good authority that the TT isn't going to happen next year, or was it this year, can't remember who told me that now, oh no hang on a minute it was you.

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17 minutes ago, Asthehills said:

Lord Street next.

20 weeks to replace a crossing that has nothing wrong with it.

I think you mean Victoria Street? 

Lord Street already has a new crossing that took 723 weeks to construct.

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