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2112

Bettison, Barmy Bernie, Celtic League Versus the Saudi Government

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Posted (edited)

I see Clare Bettison is busy asking questions about the use of Ronaldsway for the training of Saudi Arabian Airforce Pilots using BAE Hawk Jets. The Celtic League and Mr Moffat have been protesting for a while against the use of Ronaldsway.

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/ministers-should-oppose-saudi-use-of-airport-says-mhk/

Mrs Bettison Wishes Comin to protest most striongly. I’m afraid COMIN will be ineffective, especially if there are any commercial relationships involving Manx Businesses or the Chamber of Commerce. Certain COMIN members I’m sure, will jump at the opportunity if any crumbs from the big Saudi table fell into their lap. In the meantime, if these recalcitant members wish to moan - remember this -

Arrospace Cluster

Ronaldsway Aircraft

Swagelock

Triumph

im sure these few named Manx Establishment firms are making component parts for BAE Jets, be it Typhoons, Hawks and the new breed of aircrafts. I’m sure that Douglas East May have some constituents who may work at one of those places. Having ideals and principles are great, but not great if anyone made redundant or god forbid, the factory ceases production. I’m sure Bernie and his comrades will be working long hours in the foodbank to help feed the redundant workers. 

Incidentally it’s coming up to 5 July 2019, the National Day, in the middle of Douglas Bay will be a Warship or Frigate with a detachment of troops who provide the musical entertainment at Government House and Tynpotwald Fairground. Are we to have full scale protests on the Fairfield?

Edited by 2112
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she's obviously never heard the saying "engage brain before opening mouth"

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1 minute ago, Neil Down said:

she's obviously never heard the saying "engage brain before opening mouth"

Bit rich coming from you?

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32 minutes ago, Neil Down said:

she's obviously never heard the saying "engage brain before opening mouth"

 

30 minutes ago, manxy said:

Bit rich coming from you?

That’s a bit harsh.

In all fairness, a lot of Tynpotwalders are not engaging their brains before opening their mouths. Some are using this issue, which isn’t really much to be concerned about - is not a foreign policy ethical matter, in which to grandstand to the others. Beside, why should we morally preach, when others are going to morally preach about the IOM. Perhaps our elected thicko politico might have their stock answers ready, especially if offshore taxation, and beneficial ownership were to rear its head again. We really are that stupid!

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1 hour ago, manxy said:

Bit rich coming from you?

I wasn't referring to you as I am aware you don't have a brain to engage... :flowers:

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, 2112 said:

I see Clare Bettison is busy asking questions about the use of Ronaldsway for the training of Saudi Arabian Airforce Pilots using BAE Hawk Jets. The Celtic League and Mr Moffat have been protesting for a while against the use of Ronaldsway.

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/ministers-should-oppose-saudi-use-of-airport-says-mhk/

Mrs Bettison Wishes Comin to protest most striongly. I’m afraid COMIN will be ineffective, especially if there are any commercial relationships involving Manx Businesses or the Chamber of Commerce. Certain COMIN members I’m sure, will jump at the opportunity if any crumbs from the big Saudi table fell into their lap. In the meantime, if these recalcitant members wish to moan - remember this -

Arrospace Cluster

Ronaldsway Aircraft

Swagelock

Triumph

im sure these few named Manx Establishment firms are making component parts for BAE Jets, be it Typhoons, Hawks and the new breed of aircrafts. I’m sure that Douglas East May have some constituents who may work at one of those places. Having ideals and principles are great, but not great if anyone made redundant or god forbid, the factory ceases production. I’m sure Bernie and his comrades will be working long hours in the foodbank to help feed the redundant workers. 

Incidentally it’s coming up to 5 July 2019, the National Day, in the middle of Douglas Bay will be a Warship or Frigate with a detachment of troops who provide the musical entertainment at Government House and Tynpotwald Fairground. Are we to have full scale protests on the Fairfield?

Some very good points there.

Thick people like Moffat should bear the potential consequences in mind. Plus there's a lot of middle eastern money invested via here.

They should be protesting UK gov involvement in Yemen in London rather than the island.

Edited by Albert Tatlock
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Perhaps we will be declaring war on Saudi Arabia? The comedy value might raise more awareness than a bunch of half wits standing outside the airport?

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Posted (edited)

Bettison's question and the answer given are quite interesting:

Quote

Under what agreements the Isle of Man hosts foreign airforces at Ronaldsway; which international airforces have utilised the airport over the past 5 years and how many times; under what circumstances the UK rescinds permission for airforces to be part of any such agreement; and under what circumstances he could refuse to host a nation's air force aircraft under such an agreement?

The Isle of Man Airport is licensed for public use and, when open, is available for the take-off and landing of aircraft for all persons on equal terms and conditions. All types of aircraft, including military aircraft, are accepted. This is normal for any commercial airport and no individual agreements are in place.

There is no centrally held data to determine which international air forces have used the airport over the past 5 years and how many times. The Department for Infrastructure does not have the resources available at this time to undertake the research, and collation of the relevant data, to answer the second part of the Honourable Member’s question.

The UK is constitutionally responsible for the Island’s defence and international relations. The relationship with other nations’ air forces is a matter for the UK Government.

As usual it's what isn't answered that's the most revealing.  Of course any agreements under which aircraft from foreign airforces could use Ronaldsway will be set by the UK.  If 20 Russian troop carriers decided to land would we just shrug our shoulders?  But the Manx Government must know what the agreements are, so they can enforce them - why not say what they are?  Or even that they are secret.

Similarly the idea that they don't know who has been using the airport is nonsense.  Airports have to record and keep enormous amounts of data (as any visit to the CAA site will show) and it should be accessible.  If nothing else there should be records of the payments of landing charges etc that should be easy to get at.  

Now if there are security reasons for keeping this quiet, say so, but stop insulting our intelligence.

Edited by Roger Mexico
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

Similarly the idea that they don't know who has been using the airport is nonsense.  Airports have to record and keep enormous amounts of data (as any visit to the CAA site will show) and it should be accessible.  If nothing else there should be records of the payments of landing charges etc that should be easy to get at.

Maybe touch-and-go's count as utilisation but don't count as actual landings so wouldn't generate fees.

A little further googling brings up Ronaldsway's fees:

image.png.6d0b26e19745028093f8e977a4a7b151.png

Maybe the fees for military aircraft are done through the defence payment and individual movements aren't recorded.

Feels as if there might be a number of credible reasons why this info wasn't available, but in contrast you would in theory be able to get a very granular breakdown of commercial movements by airline easy peasy.

Edited by Bobbie Bobster
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8 minutes ago, Bobbie Bobster said:

A little further googling brings up Ronaldsway's fees:

image.png.6d0b26e19745028093f8e977a4a7b151.png

Maybe the fees for military aircraft are done through the defence payment and individual movements aren't recorded.

Feels as if there might be a number of credible reasons why this info wasn't available, but in contrast you would in theory be able to get a very granular breakdown of commercial movements by airline easy peasy.

Thanks.  I didn't realise there were charges for approaches, though it makes sense because it still uses resources such as ATC.  But that makes the stuff about it not being possible to obtain the data even more implausible.  I wonder if they are trying to hide it from possible FoI requests.

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@Roger Mexico I'd be inclined to the benefit of the doubt.  I can imagine a situation where for example it was originally only RAF flights and they decided to just make some sort of single payment for military services on the grounds of administrative cost/benefit, then subsequently the usage grew.  Or another decision in the past that was pragmatic at the time but tied them into a particular way of administering military utility/charges which doesn;t lend itself to easy analysis.

At the end of the day, if whoever's responsible for FOI got a sniff of can't-be-aresd-itis then there would be some consequences.

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13 minutes ago, Bobbie Bobster said:

@Roger Mexico I'd be inclined to the benefit of the doubt.  I can imagine a situation where for example it was originally only RAF flights and they decided to just make some sort of single payment for military services on the grounds of administrative cost/benefit, then subsequently the usage grew.  Or another decision in the past that was pragmatic at the time but tied them into a particular way of administering military utility/charges which doesn;t lend itself to easy analysis.

At the end of the day, if whoever's responsible for FOI got a sniff of can't-be-aresd-itis then there would be some consequences.

It still doesn't hang together.  It's certainly possible that all payments are made by the RAF on behalf of whatever country's pilots they are training.  But presumably they would still have the details of each aircraft which could be looked up once they examined the payment records.  I think it unlikely there is a lump sum or no payment at all - but if there is why not just say so?

The reason I mentioned FoI is that people have used it in the UK to find out about Saudi training and the precedent set there would be difficult to turn down if it was asked here.  Easier to claim difficulty, I suppose.  Though anyone who looks at the responses to FoI requests here will find lots of 'can't-be-arsed-itis' and unwillingness to give up the information even on appeal.

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Maybe we just disagree as to what the appropriate level of healthy scepticism is.  I've just gone through a couple of days of fighting with data collection processes and recording systems to get the right sort of data out that I need for what presumably was a simple job so I'm maybe a bit biased on the other side atm.

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5 hours ago, Neil Down said:

I wasn't referring to you as I am aware you don't have a brain to engage... :flowers:

Must be difficult for you to decide which end you use when going to the toilet,. One speaks crap and the rest is full of it HAHA

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To be fair to Ms Bettison, this is the type of question a national parliament should be asking. Rob fucking Collister uncovering that the Gov spent £700 on horse trams over TT however is a different kettle of fish.

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