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Privatise the Airport

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1 hour ago, Whatcha said:

Nellie is 100% correct in that ground handlers are paid directly from the Airlines for all services including baggage. 

Landing fees for airlines included baggage handling and off course the Airport advised the airlines they were no longer doing it, hence the airlines agreed terms with the ground handlers.

There's a very interesting part in the York report which kind off talks about this and the money the airport never lost!

Yes I saw that bit:

Quote

3.5 A further complication with these figures is that changes to Government accounting practices in recent years make it hard to compare figures year on year. For example, up to 2014/15 pension costs were excluded from payroll and paid centrally, but from 2015/16 these costs have been included within the payroll budget. Furthermore, as we have noted above the Government financial system sometimes treats ‘Ports’ as a single financial entity, thus requiring an estimated allocation between Harbours and Airport to be made to arrive at the estimates for the Airport alone. Nevertheless, and with these caveats in mind, Table 3.1 shows a consistent deficit for the Airport over the last four years, albeit performance in 2017/18 has improved over previous years due, in large part, to the decision to cease providing the baggage handling service during 2017 and the consequent reduction in staff costs. Unusually, compared to the circumstances where baggage handling has been outsourced at other airports, there was no direct reduction in the level of charges to airlines to compensate for the additional payments they would need to make to the handling agents. We explore the reasons for the coincidental fall in income in 2017/8 later in this report.

(my bold).  I rather took it to mean that the Airport does actually operate as I suggested.  I know in other airports, airline may use a ground handler of their choice (if there is one) to deal with baggage or in the past have even employed their own staff and in that in those circumstances they will be paying directly.  But it looks as if things are different here.  I can't imagine easyJet suddenly agreeing to make extra payments to Menzies with no reduction in fees to the Airport.

But then York Aviation admit that they are nowhere near understanding how the financial side operates, because no one does.  Those opening sentences in that para are echoed throughout the report many, many times.

(Incidentally I'm not sure to where that last sentence about the fall in income refers to by 'later'.  Any ideas?)

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7 hours ago, P.K. said:

The point I was making, obviously badly, is that if you can do it online why not at the desk in the airport?

Because the airport would rapidly become a left luggage depository, doss house, a nightmare for security, with queues at all facilities and lots more bored drunks. Airports are generally designed by taking into account the number of flights operating from them and the associated passenger volumes and processing times for those flights.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, P.K. said:

 

 

Edited by Albert Tatlock

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1 hour ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Because the airport would rapidly become a left luggage depository, doss house, a nightmare for security, with queues at all facilities and lots more bored drunks. Airports are generally designed by taking into account the number of flights operating from them and the associated passenger volumes and processing times for those flights.

we need to downsize dramatically then, a shed in a field and a couple of sack trucks should do it.

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7 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

.(Incidentally I'm not sure to where that last sentence about the fall in income refers to by 'later'.  Any ideas?)

Roger, reading between the lines, I suspect it is linked to variable yields from EasyJet,  see:

“5.16 A further feature of the introduction of easyJet services has been the dilution of the yield earned by the Airport in terms of average passenger related aeronautical revenue per passenger, which has declined from £5.09 to £3.28 per passenger between 2007/8 and 2017/8 - a decline of 36% whilst passenger growth over the period has been 4.8% or 18.6% from the low point in 2010/11.  This is illustrated in Figure 5.4, which shows a decline in the amount of income from airport charges earned from each passenger as the proportion of easyJet passengers in the mix has risen from 0% to 40% in 2017.”

In addition

“8.47 In terms of future aeronautical incomes, we have assumed that yields from passenger charges remain static over the 5-year period, although our analysis in Section 5 suggests that there is a risk this might be difficult to achieve. If aeronautical yield continues to decline over the five-year period at the same rate as in the last twelve months to March 2018, then the trading position will be worse than we have projected.  If aeronautical incomes increase as a result of the proposed increased security charge of £1 per departing passenger from August 2018, the trading position will improve although we have some concerns that an increased charge to airlines could also have a negative effect on traffic growth.”      

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2 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Because the airport would rapidly become a left luggage depository, doss house, a nightmare for security, with queues at all facilities and lots more bored drunks. Airports are generally designed by taking into account the number of flights operating from them and the associated passenger volumes and processing times for those flights.

Nice to see you haven't lost your sense of humour....

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2 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Nice to see you haven't lost your sense of humour....

But what Albert says is correct.

Historically you couldn’t check in physically, get your boarding card, drop your bags, go through to departures, until 2 hours before departure.

It did stop build up of luggage and large numbers in departures, drinking.

Airports/airlines actively discourage physical check in, pre check in on line is favoured.

Even if you had your boarding card you can’t get through security until 2 hours before departure. 

Flybe Liverpool don’t open their physical check in desk until then, for bag drop or the IT unsavvy.

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6 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Nice to see you haven't lost your sense of humour....

Ask a stoopid question...

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14 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

Yes I saw that bit:

(my bold).  I rather took it to mean that the Airport does actually operate as I suggested.  I know in other airports, airline may use a ground handler of their choice (if there is one) to deal with baggage or in the past have even employed their own staff and in that in those circumstances they will be paying directly.  But it looks as if things are different here.  I can't imagine easyJet suddenly agreeing to make extra payments to Menzies with no reduction in fees to the Airport.

But then York Aviation admit that they are nowhere near understanding how the financial side operates, because no one does.  Those opening sentences in that para are echoed throughout the report many, many times.

(Incidentally I'm not sure to where that last sentence about the fall in income refers to by 'later'.  Any ideas?)

You imagine correctly Roger, the Airport having charged the airlines for years (albeit in with another fee) for baggage handling couldn't reduce the charges otherwise the great quoted figures on savings by off loading the DOI handlers would not have been achieved, this no doubt went down like a lead balloon with the airlines and in particular easyjet. 

Yupp as mentioned 5.16 is where the income went down however the expenditure increased too around the same time when they funded the security contractor companies staffs wages and admin staff, bizarrely!

John, access to departure lounges is generally 6 hrs before departure, some airports don't mind if even earlier in the hope you spend your cash. 

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1 hour ago, Whatcha said:

John, access to departure lounges is generally 6 hrs before departure, some airports don't mind if even earlier in the hope you spend your cash. 

Ronaldsway, Sofia T1&2, Barcelona T1&2, Liverpool, Manchester T3, Bourgas, Amsterdam, Jersey, Reus and Dublin ( all terminals) all 2 hours.

Gatwick N 2.5 hours ( increased from 2 in last 12 months )

City 3 hours.

Thats my experience of over100 flights over last 18 months.

Mind you I fly budget, and it’s either domestic or very short haul European.

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11 hours ago, WTF said:

we need to downsize dramatically then, a shed in a field and a couple of sack trucks should do it.

Do you mean like it used to be?

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John am referring to when you can go into a departure lounge, absolutely you will not be stopped in the Iom going in when you want and Liverpool is the same, being a smoker and they have smoking airside I actually go in to departures soon as I arrive at the airport which can be quite a few hours early and Heathrow is as early as you like, having been in Amsterdam 4 times past few years and again smoking airside, am there pretty early.

You don't think perhaps as your assisted it's less.

In short they want you airside soon as, spend spend sspend which also goes in line with what the York report suggested for ways to make more money :-)

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4 minutes ago, Whatcha said:

You don't think perhaps as your assisted it's less.

No.

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56 minutes ago, Whatcha said:

John am referring to when you can go into a departure lounge, absolutely you will not be stopped in the Iom going in when you want and Liverpool is the same, being a smoker and they have smoking airside I actually go in to departures soon as I arrive at the airport which can be quite a few hours early and Heathrow is as early as you like, having been in Amsterdam 4 times past few years and again smoking airside, am there pretty early.

You don't think perhaps as your assisted it's less.

In short they want you airside soon as, spend spend sspend which also goes in line with what the York report suggested for ways to make more money :-)

Will make a difference if you're checking a bag in (certainly Gatwick).

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I’ll try and elucidate.

Usual minimum check in ( bag drop ) or going through security, to airside, at most airports is fixed to allow you to get to your departure gate 20-30 minutes before departure ( dependent on airport and airline) .

if you require assistance it’s set at 2 hours. I often arrive earlier. I build extra time into every journey, just in case.

It is possible that, without bags, you’ve been allowed through earlier than the normal 2-3 hours before departure, but it’s not normal.

There are good reasons for the time limit. Yes there is the imperative you describe @Whatcha of upselling at shops, duty free and catering, but that has to be balanced against overcrowding, safety, security and poor experience. 

Each airside will have an overall maximum permitted occupancy level, there will be many fewer seats available in the main areas than that number. There can be unexpected bulges, unpredictable, due to delays, ATC, weather, technical, they have to keep capacity for that.

They need to manage footfall carefully. They neither want, nor need, people to go through too early.

There are other dangers in letting people through early, over capacity, excessive drinking and associated control issues, ending up with too many people airside and then not being able to allow later passengers through, even if their planes are on time.  Evacuation and security tracking, in and out, are also considerations.

If you have bags, well they really don’t want bags on the belt and through the handling system and cluttering up limited space. More chance of going astray. 

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