More (Expensive) New Buses

[Max Power 6,579]

2 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

You surprise me. I would have thought that across the fleet the total annual mileage, and therefore average, would be a lot less than UK.

I dread to think what the costs will be when Bus Vannin take their first leap into electric powered busses!

No, I don't know the mileages but the wear and tear is greater here due to lower speeds, hills, sharp corners etc etc. If the bus is in use all day, there is the possibility that mileages won't be too far away from UK averages.

[Nellie 586]

21 minutes ago, Max Power said:

No idea but island mileage is generally heavier on vehicles than UK urban driving.

I think you are wrong here. I don’t think anyone has actually asked for this date via FOI, but it is well known that buses on the Island are much more lightly used than is typical in the UK. Average daily use is only 4/5 hours, per vehicle. Go and look at how many buses are parked at Banks Circus, Port Erin and Ramsey for many hours each day, and all weekend. Many buses in the UK work 16/18 hours a day, every day. Plus, a lot of mileage is interurban, such as Douglas to Port Erin, to Ramsey, which is easy running, compared to stop/start driving in Liverpool, London etc.

Why do you think UK operators are queuing up to buy our mid-life cast-offs?

[Max Power 6,579]

1 minute ago, Nellie said:

I think you are wrong here. I don’t think anyone has actually asked for this date via FOI, but it is well known that buses on the Island are much more lightly used than is typical in the UK. Average daily use is only 4/5 hours, per vehicle. Go and look at how many buses are parked at Banks Circus, Port Erin and Ramsey for many hours each day, and all weekend. Many buses in the UK work 16/18 hours a day, every day. Plus, a lot of mileage is interurban, such as Douglas to Port Erin, to Ramsey, which is easy running, compared to stop/start driving in Liverpool, London etc.

Why do you think UK operators are queuing up to buy our mid-life cast-offs?

I didn't mean the mileage is heavier but the wear and tear, I have no idea what mileages they cover, see the post above!

[Non-Believer 12,841]

27 minutes ago, Max Power said:

No, I don't know the mileages but the wear and tear is greater here due to lower speeds, hills, sharp corners etc etc. If the bus is in use all day, there is the possibility that mileages won't be too far away from UK averages.

Don't forget the state of far too many of the fecking roads.

[Nellie 586]

7 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I didn't mean the mileage is heavier but the wear and tear, I have no idea what mileages they cover, see the post above!

But surely mileage, and wear and tear, are very closely correlated, with any motorised vehicles? The more miles you do, the more parts will wear and need replacing or cause defects. If a higher proportion of those miles are at higher running speeds, in higher gear, then wear and tear will be reduced. I accept that we haven't got the empirical data here, but logic says the buses are individually getting less use, doing less mileage, and have a generally easier life, than those in UK cities.

[Andy Onchan 4,293]

13 minutes ago, Nellie said:

But surely mileage, and wear and tear, are very closely correlated, with any motorised vehicles? The more miles you do, the more parts will wear and need replacing or cause defects. If a higher proportion of those miles are at higher running speeds, in higher gear, then wear and tear will be reduced. I accept that we haven't got the empirical data here, but logic says the buses are individually getting less use, doing less mileage, and have a generally easier life, than those in UK cities.

And taking that into account will probably determine which financing method would be used, I guess.

[Max Power 6,579]

19 minutes ago, Nellie said:

But surely mileage, and wear and tear, are very closely correlated, with any motorised vehicles? The more miles you do, the more parts will wear and need replacing or cause defects. If a higher proportion of those miles are at higher running speeds, in higher gear, then wear and tear will be reduced. I accept that we haven't got the empirical data here, but logic says the buses are individually getting less use, doing less mileage, and have a generally easier life, than those in UK cities.

That's not strictly true though Nellie, the type of driving here takes a heavier toll on all mechanical components due to our environment. Steep hills, sharp corners, stopping and starting more frequently, slow, low gear work, higher revving, heavier braking etc. This is true for cars as well as heavy vehicles. A high mileage Manx vehicle will have had more repairs than a similar UK vehicle.   

[Will Halsall 377]

1 hour ago, Andy Onchan said:

You surprise me. I would have thought that across the fleet the total annual mileage, and therefore average, would be a lot less than UK.

I dread to think what the costs will be when Bus Vannin take their first leap into electric powered busses!

This might help, see page 49 - question 24:

http://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t190409.pdf

 

[Nellie 586]

54 minutes ago, Will Halsall said:

This might help, see page 49 - question 24:

http://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t190409.pdf

 

Thanks Will. So, we can calculate that the average mileage is 36,000 miles, per vehicle. The single-deck Citaros, perhaps a little higher.

We can compare this to the example of a Scottish operator who expect to get 150,000km (93,000 miles) per annum, from identical Citaro buses.

"Greenock-based McGill's Buses was an early customer for the Euro 6 model, and answers that with a clear 'yes'. It took 14 for its flagship ClydeFlyer services in late 2014. After a handful of teething problems, the Citaros have settled in well on what is demanding work, where they will each cover in the region of 150,000km per year."

Source http://www.mcgillsbuses.co.uk/news/mcgills-featured-in-route-one-magazine.aspx

[WTF 6,050]

2 hours ago, Max Power said:

That's not strictly true though Nellie, the type of driving here takes a heavier toll on all mechanical components due to our environment. Steep hills, sharp corners, stopping and starting more frequently, slow, low gear work, higher revving, heavier braking etc. This is true for cars as well as heavy vehicles. A high mileage Manx vehicle will have had more repairs than a similar UK vehicle.   

but our buses are driven unladen for the most part so there isn't anywhere near the weight on the components that they are spec'd for.

[thesultanofsheight 9,454]

38 minutes ago, WTF said:

but our buses are driven unladen for the most part so there isn't anywhere near the weight on the components that they are spec'd for.

It would be good if someone asked a question on capital side of the fleet renewal facts and figures. We have low mileage vehicles being bought with cash from the capital budget then swapped out and traded for new funded by more money from the capital budget to ‘save costs’. You presume whoever ends up with these low mileage vehicles does rather well out of it all. But then again is there really an operator out there who is mad enough to buy second hand vehicles after what the DOI has said is the absolute best way to save costs by always buying new? 

Edited February 10, 2020 by thesultanofsheight

[dilligaf 9,447]

3 hours ago, WTF said:

6 hours ago, Max Power said:

That's not strictly true though Nellie, the type of driving here takes a heavier toll on all mechanical components due to our environment. Steep hills, sharp corners, stopping and starting more frequently, slow, low gear work, higher revving, heavier braking etc. This is true for cars as well as heavy vehicles. A high mileage Manx vehicle will have had more repairs than a similar UK vehicle.   

but our buses are driven unladen for the most part so there isn't anywhere near the weight on the components that they are spec'd for.

A full double decker probably weighs about 4.5 ton heavier than when empty. 

That is not a massive weight to carry around.

Max has explained perfectly well what the difference is between a bus here and a bus in Blackpool.

Edited February 10, 2020 by dilligaf

[Dirty Buggane 200]

I think MP is talking out of his ass if he thinks Manx buses are subject to more stresses and wear than a bus trundling round Liverpool/London /Glasgow or any town/village across the UK. IMHO

[display name 618]

21 minutes ago, Dirty Buggane said:

I think MP is talking out of his ass if he thinks Manx buses are subject to more stresses and wear than a bus trundling round Liverpool/London /Glasgow or any town/village across the UK. IMHO

You only THINK??  

[finlo 4,883]

1 hour ago, dilligaf said:

A full double decker probably weighs about 4.5 ton heavier than when empty. 

That is not a massive weight to carry around.

Max has explained perfectly well what the difference is between a bus here and a bus in Blackpool.

Have you not seen some of the bloaters waddling about the place?