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Max Power

MOT's on the way?

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5 hours ago, Rog said:

Well I don't know how to copy an email onto this or any forum.

 

Here's what I can copy though for what use it will be --- 

Dated  14 Nov from DVSA about driving a Manx registered car on UK roads ---  Thank you for your email. Your query will be dealt with by a member of our team, or passed on to an appropriate person or team, as soon as possible. We will endeavour to reply within our agreed service level of 10 working days. ----

 

Dated Nov 18 th. 

Dear Mr Price

 

 ----Thank you for your email enquiry dated 15 November 2019, concerning driving a Manx car with no UK MOT on UK roads.

 

If you meet the criteria provided by my colleague below on 15 November 2019 you should be ok. However, you may also wish to check with your vehicle Insurance Company. It may also be advisable to carry a copy of your IOM registration document and ferry tickets when travelling in the UK.

 

DVSA can only provide advice for the MOT regulations of vehicles that are MOT tested in England, Scotland or Wales.

 

For information on road legality, you will need to address your enquiry to the Department for Transport, as they deal with the Construction and Use Regulations and Road Law ---

 

(itit doesn't.  Without a valid MOT it CAN'T meet the criteria.  Next came the next mail from a different department who had my query escalated to them.)

 

Then dated 18th   ----- I can confirm that we have received your enquiry and will endeavour to respond within 20 working days ----

 

so no bullshit, but definitely an open issue.  It really does look as if this is a thing that has fallen between the cracks.

up until now anyway.

So boilerplate auto confirmations as I suspected. Righto then, as you were

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4 hours ago, Rog said:

Well I'm going to continue with it until I get a definitive answer from our authorities over here.

You really are a sad bastard.

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1 hour ago, yorik said:

So boilerplate auto confirmations as I suspected. Righto then, as you were

What did you expect?  I as asked to copy what I had.

The salient point is that there has not yet been a definitive yes a MOT or equivalent must be in place or no.

It's being escalated so it's still a yes or no.

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1 hour ago, Chris C said:

You really are a sad bastard.

No, I've got my hooks into a thing and I won't let go.  If I'm wrong then ok.  If I'm right then at least I'll have opened a matter that will have to be addressed.

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1 hour ago, Rog said:

No, I've got my hooks into a thing and I won't let go.  If I'm wrong then ok.  If I'm right then at least I'll have opened a matter that will have to be addressed.

Playing the game for a second. If it really was an issue, do you not think it would have come to light already? Is it really conceivable that there would be a legal requirement which no officer anywhere in europe was aware of? 

I've driven some pretty crappy manx registered vehicles all over Europe, and have on occasion been asked for vehicle / driving documentation either at borders or at roadside checks (including once trying to enter Switzerland with no registration documents at all, and being involved in an RTC in the Netherlands), and I'm sure this must be a fairly common occurrence. Every time I've been asked for vehicle test papers and explained that there is no testing in IOM that's it, end of conversation.  If it really was a requirement surely an officer somewhere who'd had dealings with a Manx vehicle would be aware of it? 

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42 minutes ago, maynragh said:

I've driven some pretty crappy manx registered vehicles all over Europe, and have on occasion been asked for vehicle / driving documentation either at borders or at roadside checks (including once trying to enter Switzerland with no registration documents at all, and being involved in an RTC in the Netherlands), and I'm sure this must be a fairly common occurrence. Every time I've been asked for vehicle test papers and explained that there is no testing in IOM that's it, end of conversation....

Me too. But......the world moves on and things tighten up. Just because IoM doesn't, doesn't mean that the world moves at IoM's pace. Playing devil's advocate here, but let's see what answers, if any, that "Rog" elicits from DVSA. It may be nothing but standard bull replies. Or he may have opened a can of worms.....

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I don't disagree with Rog (to a point) in wanting MOT's as its in everyones interest to make sure that roadworthy vehicles are out and about all the time but as I'm one of those who make sure my tyres and other parts of the car are ok, then I'm probably one of a few who make sure things are reasonably safe. Its those who do not give a tuppence-worth over what is safe or not that cause the problems. Personally, I do not want to see MOT's but I do understand their one day value as being safe but unfortunately do not guarantee safety for the rest of the year. 

That said and only talking aloud, would Traffic Wardens be of better use than using Police? For instance, if they find a car that looks unroadworthy because of some 'noticeable appearance', then could or should they ask the recipient to check their (for instance) tyre/other defect and then have it checked with the MOT place? (ps: add your own words to suit, but hopefully you'll see what is meant in good faith?)

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9 hours ago, Rog said:

No, I've got my hooks into a thing and I won't let go.  If I'm wrong then ok.  If I'm right then at least I'll have opened a matter that will have to be addressed.

Don't worry.you're not that important to anyone.

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7 hours ago, maynragh said:

Playing the game for a second. If it really was an issue, do you not think it would have come to light already? Is it really conceivable that there would be a legal requirement which no officer anywhere in europe was aware of? 

I've driven some pretty crappy manx registered vehicles all over Europe, and have on occasion been asked for vehicle / driving documentation either at borders or at roadside checks (including once trying to enter Switzerland with no registration documents at all, and being involved in an RTC in the Netherlands), and I'm sure this must be a fairly common occurrence. Every time I've been asked for vehicle test papers and explained that there is no testing in IOM that's it, end of conversation.  If it really was a requirement surely an officer somewhere who'd had dealings with a Manx vehicle would be aware of it? 

 It's looking increasingly probable that it's a thing that hasn't been realised before.  If it was a straightforward "not a problem" I would have expected a reply to that effect.  I haven't yet had one.

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I was in favour of MOTs before seeing the 0.7% accident stats or whatever it was in this thread. I’ve changed my mind. Roadside checks are the way to go - stop cars with dodgy lights and give them 7 day notices to get sorted etc. Responsible drivers will appreciate being told, and probably look after their vehicles anyway. 

Having said that, the CAA insist that planes have an annual certificate of airworthiness. Does anyone here think they should change their regulations based on similar logic?

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6 minutes ago, wrighty said:

I was in favour of MOTs before seeing the 0.7% accident stats or whatever it was in this thread. I’ve changed my mind. Roadside checks are the way to go - stop cars with dodgy lights and give them 7 day notices to get sorted etc. Responsible drivers will appreciate being told, and probably look after their vehicles anyway. 

Having said that, the CAA insist that planes have an annual certificate of airworthiness. Does anyone here think they should change their regulations based on similar logic?

It’s a good point. I suppose the difference is that aircraft are subject to much higher fatigue indexes. Also, although airmanship is often a factor, bits do drop off aircraft. When they do, it tends to be a one way ride.

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56 minutes ago, Rog said:

 It's looking increasingly probable that it's a thing that hasn't been realised before.  If it was a straightforward "not a problem" I would have expected a reply to that effect.  I haven't yet had one.

It really doesn’t. Of course it’s been thought of, in the U.K., in the EU. It’s not just a U.K. IoM issue, it’s not even a U.K., IoM, JSY, GSY, Small Islands, issue. It’s an issue that’s been around since long before MOT’s were introduced and after MOT when many countries in Europe, and elsewhere, didn’t/don’t  have technical inspections.

Whats more it’s been dealt with, by International Treaty, and the rules of interpretation of International Treaties and of statute law, and EU directives, which is that the local law will be interpreted so as not to contravene international obligations. There’s a good body of law on that. The principles are well known. They were even explored in Manx Courts following Teare v U.K. in the ECTHR. It’s not important that the case wasn’t about MOT. It was about how to deal with a clas between domestic law and international law.

The rule is, simply, that the drafting of a domestic piece of legislation, act, regulation, rule, or EU directive, and it’s interpretation, application and enforcement, is always to be deemed and done so as to NOT infringe international treaty obligations.

A (private) car registered in an EU member state requires a technical inspection after it gets to a minimum specified age (3, 4, 5 years - differing by country) and periodically ( period 1, 2, or 3 years - differing by country ) to be driven on roads in the EU. Each state is permitted to, can, and does, legislate exemptions and exceptions. As long as the terms of the exemption and exemptions are met, those vehicles can be legally on EU roads without technical inspection.

So your claim does not even hold true for vehicles in the EU. I’ll give a good example, velocycles, mopeds below a certain cc, quadricycles don’t need road tax/VED, or, technical inspection in some EU countries. In fact you don’t even need a driving licence to drive them in some instances. You do need insurance.  Bringing one to, and driving one in, the UK temporarily to the U.K. is permissible as long as you have a valid driving licence. That’s covered by separate licence recognition regulations/rules. But because it’s tax/VED/technical inspection requirements are determined by country of registration they don’t need to be taxed or have an inspection certificate in a third country.

Do you know how many non EU countries have land borders with the EU? Or ports with car ferries arriving from non EU destinations?  It’s dozens. 
 

The temporary entry of non EU vehicles into an EU country, and use on EU roads, and vice versa,  is governed by Vienna. Not by EU directive or U.K. statute. Technical Inspections are not currently required under Vienna.

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18 hours ago, Rog said:

1. Dated  14 Nov from DVSA about driving a Manx registered car on UK. Thank you for your email enquiry dated 15 November 2019, concerning driving a Manx car with no UK MOT on UK roads.

 If you meet the criteria provided by my colleague below on 15 November 2019 you should be ok. However, you may also wish to check with your vehicle Insurance Company. It may also be advisable to carry a copy of your IOM registration document and ferry tickets when travelling in the UK.

 DVSA can only provide advice for the MOT regulations of vehicles that are MOT tested in England, Scotland or Wales.

For information on road legality, you will need to address your enquiry to the Department for Transport, as they deal with the Construction and Use Regulations and Road Law ---

2. Without a valid MOT it CAN'T meet the criteria. 

3. It really does look as if this is a thing that has fallen between the cracks.up until now anyway.

So, up until now you’ve been claiming it was DVSA, but DVSA have said “not us - try DoT” . You didn’t tell us that. It’s not an escalation, it’s a passing the buck. Someone at DVSA thought “f*** me, nutter alert, let’s get rid. Who can I palm him off on”

Ive explained the legal position, fully.

1. They replied the day before you wrote? In fact there’s lots wrong with the answer. You don’t need your ferry ticket. If you’re a student you can temporarily import for 12 months.

2. You are wrong.
 

3. No, it’s such a common occurrence.

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