Jump to content
Manx Forums, Live Chat, Blogs & Classifieds for the Isle of Man
Chris Thomas

Lies, damned lies & experts

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, MrPB said:

 Are any of those external bonds making provision to repay the debt at maturity?

Also wasn’t the £95m MUA debt written off only the internal loan between Treasury and the MUA that was written off? The external loan must still be sat somewhere in Treasury? Actually the IOMN link you provided above seems to confirm this “The consultants concluded that writing off £95m from the consolidated loan fund would bring the debts in line with other British power companies - and increase financial resilience.” So that looks like only the internal loan to ourselves was written off to me as the papers say it was £95m written off from the CLF which you confirm above is the portfolio of loans which are due to Treasury by the MUA.

The bonds cannot be paid off early, but there is a bond repayment fund which has around £70 million in it which will repay the bonds at their maturities in 2030 and 2034. Consolidated Loans Fund is internal, as you state.

10 hours ago, b4mbi said:

Hi Chris, whilst you're in an explanatory mood, who invested in and owns these bonds?

I do not know. But they have a good yield relative to current rates. 

10 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

Thanks Chris. It sounds a bit like the six credit card trick, where you run up debt and then keep paying each off with the next one. It also shows that accountants are running the place, contrary to what should be happening.

What a mess.

This is a clear example of the need for an offence of misconduct in a Public Office on our statutes. The individuals involved operated so far out of their level of authority that the public would have expected sanctions.

Isle of Man Government finance is so incredibly complex, I don’t think anyone really has a clear picture on exactly where we are. There must be a way of simplifying things. I can’t imagine any other place of 80’000 souls having such a complex administration.

It is not a mess. It is sorted with a financial, business and pricing plan. And the MEA failing 15 years ago was investigated with conclusions and some action for about 8 years thereafter. What is the point of going back repeatedly?

10 hours ago, english zloty said:

The water side of things was all sorted.

You are right - the MUA bond repayment fund was formed from the Water Board bond repayment fund which was established first.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Chris Thomas said:

Pay rises in public sector are no more or less inflationary than pay rises in the private sector. And inflation has tumbled in the last couple of years when pay in the public sector has been agreed in a 3 year pay deal. Both private and public sector earnings pay tax and NI similarly. 

Mr Thomas did you get this from your statisticians.

As your statisticians are using the wrong formular for wage rises in the private sector.

They need to ask people from that sector and stop guessing.

Most private sector have not have inflationary rises.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Rushen Spy said:

Except one minor difference you're omitting: there are no sector-wide pay rises in the private sector.  I wasn't referring to monetary inflation, as in more cash in circulation (causing existing supply to be worth less) but to cost of living inflation. The cost of living is inflating, but the actual monetary inflation is low. This simply compounds the adverse effect of the former on the private sector workforce.

What evidence do you have for the assertion you make about monetary inflation? I think there is quite a lot of money in the Manx economy. I was referring to cost of living. Inflation link to wage rises is the same whether they are private or public. You are right about collective bargaining difference, but I believe pay in the private sector is benchmarked extensively too which probably has similar effect.

Edited by Chris Thomas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you're in receipt of a substantial salary with an £8000 receipt free expense account you are not in the right place to be making comments on the cost of living.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get that there Billy Henderson MLC. He knows all about cost of living. He was struggling on £50,000pa

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Holte End said:

Mr Thomas did you get this from your statisticians.

As your statisticians are using the wrong formular for wage rises in the private sector.

They need to ask people from that sector and stop guessing.

Most private sector have not have inflationary rises.

With respect, the statutory annual earnings survey of 2000 + people is more reliable than your personal experience. But you are right that average earnings in private sector have been under pressure, although median earnings not so much, and some in the private sector have had static or falling wages. Thanks for your comment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, MrPB said:

Lots of plate spinning too. For instance, if we aren’t making provision to repay the external loan holders at maturity those bonds are going to have to be refinanced as the bond holders (probably pension funds or institutional investors) are due their money back at redemption. Also on the CLF it’s just a basket of internal loans due to Treasury so you could write some or all of it off but the controversial external MUA borrowings to Barclays must still be sat somewhere in Treasury or elsewhere whether the internal CLF loan has been written off or not? 

Thanks for comment. The bonds will mature but will not need refinancing as there is a bond fund to repay them. The unauthorized loan was paid off some years ago.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Chris Thomas said:

The bonds cannot be paid off early, but there is a bond repayment fund which has around £70 million in it which will repay the bonds at their maturities in 2030 and 2034. Consolidated Loans Fund is internal. 

To be fair thats half an answer. But enlightening. So was it only the MUA internal CLF loan written off? When were Barclays paid off if the linked external loan has now been settled? 

Edited by MrPB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Chris Thomas said:

What evidence do you have for the assertion you make about monetary inflation? I think there is quite a lot of money in the Manx economy. I was referring to cost of living. Inflation link to wage rises is the same whether they are private or public. You are right about collective bargaining difference, but I believe pay in the private sector is benchmarked extensively too which probably has similar effect.

I didn't say there was monetary inflation, or at least not above normal levels relevant to what I am talking about.

I said there was cost of living inflation caused by the sector-wide pay rise for the public sector, which adversely affects the private sector because the private sector does not have sector-wide pay rises.

It's obvious that if you have an economy where a large segment of the workforce (and their connected households) are receiving a pay rise, it will push up cost of living as businesses see it as a green light to increase prices.

Landlords and rent -- even public sector -- is an obvious example.

The prices go up because some people get a pay rise, but what about the majority who don't get a pay rise? They get screwed over, that's what happens.

Edited by Rushen Spy
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MrPB said:

To be fair thats half an answer. But enlightening. So was it only the MUA internal CLF loan written off? When were Barclays paid off if the external loan has now been settled? 

Yes, re CLF. In October 2017 Tynwald resolved that “Treasury writes off £95 million of loans to the Manx Utilities Authority from the Consolidated Loans Fund.” The unauthorized loan was paid off before then, from memory. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Chris Thomas said:

With respect, the statutory annual earnings survey of 2000 + people is more reliable than your personal experience. But you are right that average earnings in private sector have been under pressure, although median earnings not so much, and some in the private sector have had static or falling wages. Thanks for your comment.

2000 government employees :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Rushen Spy said:

I didn't say there was monetary inflation, or at least not above normal levels relevant to what I am talking about.

I said there was cost of living inflation caused by the sector-wide pay rise for the public sector, which adversely affects the private sector because the private sector does not have sector-wide pay rises.

It's obvious that if you have an economy where a large segment of the workforce (and their connected households) are receiving a pay rise, it will push up cost of living as businesses see it as a green light to increase prices.

Landlords and rent -- even public sector -- is an obvious example.

The prices go up because some people get a pay rise, but what about the majority who don't get a pay rise? They get screwed over, that's what happens.

Thanks for comment and discussion. The link between wage and price inflation is part of economic theory, but I am not sure you can see the connection as clearly as you suggest. Also price rises of different things affect different income people and households differently depending on different consumption patterns. Finally public sector pay negotiators have referred to higher pay rises in certain sectors in the Island’s private sector. In summary we both know this is complicated. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Chris Thomas said:

Yes, re CLF. In October 2017 Tynwald resolved that “Treasury writes off £95 million of loans to the Manx Utilities Authority from the Consolidated Loans Fund.” The unauthorized loan was paid off before then, from memory. 

So you're saying categorically the external unauthorised loan to Barclays was paid off before the internal CLF loan was written off? Seems odd to make a big fuss about writing off an internal loan that apparently has already been repaid years ago. 

Edited by MrPB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MrPB said:

So you're saying categorically the external unauthorised loan to Barclays was paid off before the internal CLF loan was written off? Seems odd to write off an internal loan that has already been repaid 

No. I am here to encourage truth. I will correct my memory if you can share with me reliable sources that show otherwise. We should all retract incorrect statements!!!

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...