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4 hours ago, Rushen Spy said:

There is a disturbing mindset on this island I've noticed that is very peculiar or at least more prevalent here due to the type of people we attract to the island. It's a vicious dog eat dog mindset. They're not content to live and let live but have to "one up" everybody else, take delight in other people's misfortune, enjoy trying to destroy other people, take a disliking to someone and then resent them being happy or doing well, love to kick people while they're down, and just generally take delight in making other people's lives miserable. They're like vultures who feed off other people's misfortune. I've never encountered people as toxic and petty as on this island. So it's no wonder there is a lot of poor mental health for those of us who are actually normal and have to share the same island as such people.

How many places have you lived TJ?

1 hour ago, CharlieBrown said:

What a twat sheldon, one guy tops himself and you go hounding a 19 year old who has a shit load of problems that were not of her making. Do yourself a favour and shut up you stupid prick.

At what age does adulthood begin?

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2 minutes ago, gettafa said:

How many places have you lived TJ?

At what age does adulthood begin?

These pair have a fair way to go...

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17 minutes ago, Sheldon said:

If anyone is being overly disrespectful on this thread, I don’t think it’s me, so in that spirit I won’t cheapen it further by giving you the response that this deserves.

I think you’d probably have had to work for the police or the mental health services to have had such in depth dealings with a person like this. I’m therefore surprised at the number of posters offering opinions based on things they claim they know. 

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5 minutes ago, gettafa said:

How many places have you lived TJ?

At what age does adulthood begin?

I don't know to be honest, but I guess this relies on basic functioning to begin with, really if you don't know the full facts is it not best to shut up?

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On 1/18/2020 at 6:51 PM, Patient centred said:

I don’t think they measure it like they do in UK where suicide rate is about 1.5 per 10,000. That makes rate higher in iom but the numbers will be skewed by the fact the population is relatively smaller and suicide is a relative rare event. 
Almost impossible to know going forwards who is going to commit suicide and who isn’t. Much easier retrospectively. All studies show this. 

To get back to the main topic, the figures are measured in the same way here and we know this because it is stated in the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Report on Suicide which has just been produced and is being discussed in Tynwald this coming week (there is a second volume of the Report with more written submissions and so on).  In her evidence the Director of Public Health[1] said (p 152 of pdf): 

Quote

The methodology we use is to exactly replicate what is used by the Office of National Statistics across. So it is based on death certification where the cause of death was either suicide or undetermined cause. That gives the widest interpretation and allows for the fact that sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a death was with deliberate intent or not. Looking at all of that data – and bearing in mind that we have a very small population, which means that purely by chance we will get a saw tooth graph over years – it looks as if we have got peaks troughs, peaks troughs, but that is simply an artefact of small numbers, and the fact that with small numbers a difference of maybe one or two appears to be a big difference, but statistically it is not significant.

This shows up in the actual figures:

image.png.cf38a61c120b7d34da287e10dd99bfc6.png

Though these figures don't include 2018 as registration can only take place after an inquest and these can take up to two years to happen (with an average of six months).   There were 94 cases in the ten years above (p 20) so reports of a big increase in that year may have been skewed by 2017 being low with five rather than 2018 being abnormal.

 

[1]  Who still seems unable to contain her disbelief about how little data collection and analysis was done before she came here four years ago.

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2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

To get back to the main topic, the figures are measured in the same way here and we know this because it is stated in the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Report on Suicide which has just been produced and is being discussed in Tynwald this coming week (there is a second volume of the Report with more written submissions and so on).  In her evidence the Director of Public Health[1] said (p 152 of pdf): 

This shows up in the actual figures:

image.png.cf38a61c120b7d34da287e10dd99bfc6.png

England may have the lowest suicide rate out of the above, but I'm sure it more than makes up for it with the murder rate!

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12 minutes ago, GD4XXX said:

England may have the lowest suicide rate out of the above, but I'm sure it more than makes up for it with the murder rate!

England and Wales rate at 1.2 per 100,000
Scotland at 1.1 per 100,000

Its not an overly significant murder rate, but based on population, it does mean there are more murders, because there are more people to kill and be killed.

Also, I believe (dont quote me here) that terrorist attacks are considered within the murder rate and those are more frequent in England , hence a slightly higher overall average

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country,_region_or_dependant_territory

And there a fun (?) little interactive Murder Map here if you want to see how that compares to the rest of the "civilised" world. 

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/murder-rate-by-country/

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9 hours ago, Rushen Spy said:

It seems like they actively prey on the vulnerable in order to criminalise them, so they can keep up the "crime" figures and justify annual budgets. If anybody is wasting "police time", it's the police.

I’ve stayed off this thread as it’s got out of hand. I will however offer the following on the above.

It isn’t what happens, but there is an element of it that does bear out. There is a gap between criminality and mental health. That gap should be filled by supportive social care, but there is an under provision in that area. We are talking here about just looking after people that find the world a bit difficult to cope with. They are not, at this stage, mentally ill. The result is that vulnerable people then come to the notice of the police as they are the first line of contact in many cases where crisis occurs. 

Then, the bar for mental health treatment is quite high. So detentions by the police under the MH Act are usually returned to the community, with a follow up plan. That ‘follow up’ clearly can’t be full time, so the person lapses, and comes to police attention again. This spirals, and one of two things happen; the individual either becomes truly mentally ill, or commit an offence and are criminalized. 

Its not right, but that is how it plays out. 

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1 hour ago, Derek Flint said:

I’ve stayed off this thread as it’s got out of hand. I will however offer the following on the above.

It isn’t what happens, but there is an element of it that does bear out. There is a gap between criminality and mental health. That gap should be filled by supportive social care, but there is an under provision in that area. We are talking here about just looking after people that find the world a bit difficult to cope with. They are not, at this stage, mentally ill. The result is that vulnerable people then come to the notice of the police as they are the first line of contact in many cases where crisis occurs. 

Then, the bar for mental health treatment is quite high. So detentions by the police under the MH Act are usually returned to the community, with a follow up plan. That ‘follow up’ clearly can’t be full time, so the person lapses, and comes to police attention again. This spirals, and one of two things happen; the individual either becomes truly mentally ill, or commit an offence and are criminalized. 

Its not right, but that is how it plays out. 

I concur with what most of what Derek Flint has said . Clearly police are at the sharp end of the whole procedure and often get the fall out from people with issues. Therir clearly not equipped or have time to help or deal with these individuals but where else do they go initially after there circumstances have maybe been the cause of their criminality . Powers that be have gone along way to deal with this by having mental health nurses at the police station to assess anyone felt to be vulnerable. Good move and they can refer to the various stages of help available including Crisis Team. However this is where it all falls down again as while it helps the Police it doesn't change the woeful Mental health services ability to deal with it futher . Understaffed and lots not competent means that a person once again is denied the ongoing support they need . Ohh they will dish out Meds like smarties but because of staffing will not give the person the necessary input from day one ..i.e. It's around 4 weeks for a self referral assessment and then depending how that goes up to 6 months plus for a CMHN or much longer for a psychiatrist. Clearly not remotely acceptable as by then the issues and the person  will only get worse . 

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1 hour ago, Numbnuts said:

I concur with what most of what Derek Flint has said . Clearly police are at the sharp end of the whole procedure and often get the fall out from people with issues. Therir clearly not equipped or have time to help or deal with these individuals but where else do they go initially after there circumstances have maybe been the cause of their criminality . Powers that be have gone along way to deal with this by having mental health nurses at the police station to assess anyone felt to be vulnerable. Good move and they can refer to the various stages of help available including Crisis Team. However this is where it all falls down again as while it helps the Police it doesn't change the woeful Mental health services ability to deal with it futher . Understaffed and lots not competent means that a person once again is denied the ongoing support they need . Ohh they will dish out Meds like smarties but because of staffing will not give the person the necessary input from day one ..i.e. It's around 4 weeks for a self referral assessment and then depending how that goes up to 6 months plus for a CMHN or much longer for a psychiatrist. Clearly not remotely acceptable as by then the issues and the person  will only get worse . 

My point is, mental health services are overwhelmed because of the under resourcing of social care services. This is the bit that needs fixing. More day to day support for the vulnerable 

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2 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

My point is, mental health services are overwhelmed because of the under resourcing of social care services. This is the bit that needs fixing. More day to day support for the vulnerable 

I agree and the mental health service has to be on parity with physical health which was a aim from Government years ago but never addressed . a broken leg and your sorted in a day or so then rehab etc. Mental Heath wait for assessment then referred to maybe many months down the line often up to 18 months . It all needs a big shake up and powers that be to stop pushing into the long grass . It's only going to get worse due to influence of social media and the likes .  

Edited by Numbnuts

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1 hour ago, Derek Flint said:

My point is, mental health services are overwhelmed because of the under resourcing of social care services. This is the bit that needs fixing. More day to day support for the vulnerable 

Yet the main budget we are trying to pull back on is health and social care, and the main areas in the quality of life survey that people say are going down hill fast are health and social care. 

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41 minutes ago, thesultanofsheight said:

Yet the main budget we are trying to pull back on is health and social care, and the main areas in the quality of life survey that people say are going down hill fast are health and social care. 

Coincidence ??!!!! I think not :-(

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1 hour ago, thesultanofsheight said:

Yet the main budget we are trying to pull back on is health and social care, and the main areas in the quality of life survey that people say are going down hill fast are health and social care. 

I'd agree with that but there appears to be a lot of waste which needs addressing in this area, mostly caused by things outside of the control of the staff on the ground. I think it's just been allowed to roll along by successive administrations. 

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1 hour ago, MrPB said:

I read the thread on the psychiatric service and some of the comments there were were shocking in terms of lack of support for people. What we shouldn’t be doing is taking it out on the people who are sick just because the DHSC and hospital management can’t sort themselves out. However what we seem to be doing with the budget cutting is taking money away from front line services because we can’t sort out the messy structure of the entity charged with delivering those services which is totally unfair. It’s not the patients fault that the hospital is in such a mess in the way in which it operates. 

Honestly , as someone who's been under that service for 5 years or so it's worse than shocking , if even you get  access to the service . Trust me it's bordering on criminal the lack of care and time scales to get to a Psychiatist . I was a couple of years ago quoted 18 months waiting list . More recently managed to see one after 11 months. By which time the damage will have already been done or someone's no longer around and just a statistic in many cases 

Edited by Numbnuts
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