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Isle of Pride


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8 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

You'll find, if you ever actually talk to someone on HRT, that most of their muscle mass drops significantly. Their hormone levels become within the ranges of a cisgender woman.

It even changes how their bodies process oxygen, estradiol messes with your haemoglobin.

Equally, one survey paper suggests that transwomen are on average, 10% weaker than cisgender men, and that's before any form of hormone therapy.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

The paper linked talks about the impacts, and also discusses the challenges of actually getting the data to measure some of this. It highlights the oxygen factors I mentioned, as well as the strength before hormone therapy, along with some possible explanations. It also talks about how, trans women in the US Air Force perform similarly to cis women in push-ups/sit-ups. But again, that might simply be a limitation in the data we have for that 12-36 month period.

As well as the fact that the paper is based on a relatively short 3-year period. We don't have the data for people going beyond that point.

Is it fair? How about for a transgender man? Where do they compete? It's likely they may well differ from the cisgender male baseline too. Whilst testosterone will make some changes, others it won't. So is it fair to put them into the men's category? Or unfair to put them in the women's category, because the testosterone will give them significant advantage?

It turns out, as a cisgender woman, your testosterone levels can naturally be too high to compete in some sports. Various conditions such as polycystic ovary syndrome can cause you to have significantly more testosterone in your blood. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7159262/

The paper linked there actually discusses whether it's fair for women with the advantage that appears to stem from to compete with women who don't. Of course, a transgender woman's testosterone levels will be generally in the ranges of a normal cisgender woman's. So they'd too be at a disadvantage in some respects.

So, where can we find fairness?

By them having their own category to compete in from a sporting perspective.

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3 hours ago, Zarley said:

That's along the lines of what I see as a solution to the public toilets and changing rooms controversy. Provide male only, female only and add a third uni-sex/uni-gender facility.

The problem is - how do you police it? What would stop the minority of transwomen who wish to use biological female only facilities as a venue to sexually assault biological females from simply doing so anyway?

It's a minefield and as long as discussions are stifled by accusations of transphobia, we're never going to get anywhere. 

The changing room issue puzzles me.  I don't object to the gender of anyone in a changing room, I would be equally prim and proper regardless of the gender of those around me.  I don't think someone who is transitioning or has transitioned is any more likely to perv (should I really be such an object) than someone of the same gender. 

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3 hours ago, Zarley said:

The problem is - how do you police it? What would stop the minority of transwomen who wish to use biological female only facilities as a venue to sexually assault biological females from simply doing so anyway?

 

Do they exist anywhere but JK Rowling's fears. There's nothing stopping a CiS Man with evil intent going into female bogs either is there?

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1 hour ago, Declan said:

Do they exist anywhere but JK Rowling's fears. There's nothing stopping a CiS Man with evil intent going into female bogs either is there?

I’m not aware of any transgender mtf being accused, caught, prosecuted or convicted of assaulting cis women in women safe spaces. The only case I am aware of is a nasty piece of work, career criminal, pre op, who somehow got into a women’s prison and raped several other inmates. That’s not relevant to the pretend risk highlighted.

I agree it’s a false dichotomy. It’s a false threat. People like Rowling may genuinely fear it, but it’s not a real risk. It’s irrational.

If she’s right then we also need to have separate cis male loos from gay male loos, ceparate cis women’s loos from lesbian loos. And that doesn’t start to answer the false conundrum of the suggested threat of mtf and ftm.

Lots of trans people don’t have bottom surgery, for pretty obvious reasons. The functional effectiveness of phalloplasty or vaginoplasty isn’t good.

However I’m fence sitting about self certification for gender registration. 

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24 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I agree it’s a false dichotomy. It’s a false threat. People like Rowling may genuinely fear it, but it’s not a real risk. It’s irrational.

I think it's deliberately used to invoke quite an emotive and visceral reaction.

A very good male-to-female trans friend of mine firmly believes that anti-trans rhetoric is at least partly rooted in internal misogyny, insofar as people not being able to get their heads around men wanting to transition to becoming, what they see as, the 'worse' gender. It's far easier to rationalise it as associated with a perversion in their heads. That's potentially where some of the 'men in dresses' false equivalence comes from.

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4 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

I think it's deliberately used to invoke quite an emotive and visceral reaction.

A very good male-to-female trans friend of mine firmly believes that anti-trans rhetoric is at least partly rooted in internal misogyny, insofar as people not being able to get their heads around men wanting to transition to becoming, what they see as, the 'worse' gender. It's far easier to rationalise it as associated with a perversion in their heads. That's potentially where some of the 'men in dresses' false equivalence comes from.

With some, like Grieer, I agree. Rowling, I’m not sure.

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I can’t accept that it’s right for a former male weightlifter who now identifies as a woman to compete in the women’s category in the olympics. Does that make me transphobic?

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2 hours ago, Gladys said:

The changing room issue puzzles me.  I don't object to the gender of anyone in a changing room, I would be equally prim and proper regardless of the gender of those around me.  I don't think someone who is transitioning or has transitioned is any more likely to perv (should I really be such an object) than someone of the same gender. 

Not quite on subject but I was in a male loo recently when a female came in with a young boy in tow who needed to use loo, I wasn’t really sure what to make of it, she just said the female loo was busy and he was bursting and if she doesn’t go in then he won’t wash his hands.....

Can’t say it overly bothered me, it just isn’t something I’ve seen before. I was brought up by a single mother and I was always taken in the female toilet, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that was the correct thing to do either.

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6 minutes ago, wrighty said:

I can’t accept that it’s right for a former male weightlifter who now identifies as a woman to compete in the women’s category in the olympics. Does that make me transphobic?

What happens with the blood tests? what would stop a transgender MTF to temporarily stop their female hormone drugs during a competition, would their body start naturally producing testosterone again?

Its not something I know anything about, but it certainly seems grossly unfair on the surface of it.

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9 minutes ago, wrighty said:

I can’t accept that it’s right for a former male weightlifter who now identifies as a woman to compete in the women’s category in the olympics. Does that make me transphobic?

No. Just a purveyor of  and pragmatism and common sense.

But I would also like learn why anyone would think you were transphobic. There must be reasons, otherwise no one would be talking about it right now. 

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17 minutes ago, Annoymouse said:

Not quite on subject but I was in a male loo recently when a female came in with a young boy in tow who needed to use loo, I wasn’t really sure what to make of it, she just said the female loo was busy and he was bursting and if she doesn’t go in then he won’t wash his hands.....

Can’t say it overly bothered me, it just isn’t something I’ve seen before. I was brought up by a single mother and I was always taken in the female toilet, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that was the correct thing to do either.

Do you have separately designated loos by  sex or gender at home? In the office? 

Lots of places in France, Italy, Spain, and lots of other countries have unisex loos.

The invasion of male facilities by women is a common phenomenon at places like the Amsterdam Opera house. A modern building with a seeming over supply of facilities. But at the end of an interval, 5 minute bell, if there’s a queue for the ladies they all pile into the gents. No one bats an eyelid. Apart from the Americans.

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58 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Do you have separately designated loos by  sex or gender at home? In the office? 

Lots of places in France, Italy, Spain, and lots of other countries have unisex loos.

The invasion of male facilities by women is a common phenomenon at places like the Amsterdam Opera house. A modern building with a seeming over supply of facilities. But at the end of an interval, 5 minute bell, if there’s a queue for the ladies they all pile into the gents. No one bats an eyelid. Apart from the Americans.

There has been separate loos in every workplace I’ve worked in, I think as a society we’re slowly getting better, I’ve seen a few females use the gents over the years and I couldn’t really care less, but it’s the first time I’ve seen a young mum come in with (I assume) her boy.

 

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30 minutes ago, Annoymouse said:

There has been separate loos in every workplace I’ve worked in, I think as a society we’re slowly getting better, I’ve seen a few females use the gents over the years and I couldn’t really care less, but it’s the first time I’ve seen a young mum come in with (I assume) her boy.

 

I’m pretty sure I’ve taken my daughters into a cubicle in gents toilets when they were too little to go in the ladies on their own. 

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3 hours ago, John Wright said:

However I’m fence sitting about self certification for gender registration. 

Same, I think Government should be as less involved as it can in peoples’ private affairs. However, there is a valid argument to keep a record of how many trans people there actually are, there are layers of bureaucracy for so many facets of life and it’s somewhat inevitable. The census questions on this subject won’t be empirical as they were optional. 

I think the hysteria around female spaces being invaded has been blown out of proportion, but do I have sympathy for those who are growing frustrated with changing language. When NHS trusts are pushing to eradicate words such as ‘Mother’ and ‘breastfeeding’ and replace them with ‘Parent who has given birth’ and ‘chestfeeding’ it makes me feel a little sad, and that female biological functions seem to matter less. I can’t imagine that most trans men would mind, it seems to a very noisy woke minority who care about these things. 
 

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