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Isle of Pride


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11 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

There’s not many that would deny that.


But to instill a fear of the police into impressionable young minds and make them  be thought of as some sort of enemy by your words and actions ( whether intended or not) is not the way forward.

Do you honestly think that a 2 person, 5 minute, home made cardboard placard, protest would do that? Really.

You're missing the point. There are still segments of the LGBTQIA + community who fear the police and in particular think that they won’t receive equal treatment. 

Try addressing how we resolve that.

Its not my fight. But as the Pete Seager song says, paraphrasing Martin Niemoller, when will we ever learn. That’s why we need to be vigilant, support their right to raise matters of concern. To challenge the accepted orthodoxy. To be “woke” and not allow the antiwoke far and Alt right to attack awareness, kindness, consideration so that anyone can spout hate or bile or just deliberately offend, using freedom of speech as a defence. 

With freedoms come great responsibilities. And just now I see attacks on many of our hard won freedoms and equalities. And most of the stuff about cancel culture and being gagged is nothing more than a politically motivated Alt right and ultra conservative and evangelical Free Speech Union, false narrative.

 

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10 minutes ago, Wavey Davey said:

The full quote is reproduced above by Helix. Yes he suggests that the police have gone round raping people. It’s all attention seeking hyperbole which does little to get them taken seriously.

Yes it’s clearly wrong having officers snigger at people who are in custody. But I’m sure they do it to lots of people not just men they happen to find in make up. There has been a lot of misogyny displayed by the police too. Should that have them being banned from policing womens football matches? It’s very odd that people who demand inclusivity from everyone else want certain groups of people banned from their events. 

The problem with your defence of a police presence, and your attempt to take these two down, is that, whilst there may not have been police rapes in the IoM, there are many well documented examples across the USA and UK where police have raped, abused, extorted, minority groups they should be protecting.

Again, does the quote say the rapes happened during or subsequent to policing at Pride, or police having a community presence at Pride.

The policing of marches and demos I remember wasn’t very sympathetic. It wouldn’t be acceptable now.

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3 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well it’s not just that is it?
 

There are radio interviews, provocative statements on Facebook pages etc etc

It’s de minimis and you’re concentrating on that to the exclusion of the real questions and issues. It’s nothing more than a diversionary tactic.

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11 minutes ago, John Wright said:

The policing of marches and demos I remember wasn’t very sympathetic. It wouldn’t be acceptable now.

But what is the point of going on about how things used to be when they are very obviously changing for the better?  It achieves nothing and if anything just slows down progress.

People who were treated unsympathetically and in was that wouldn’t be acceptable now is a long list.

Black people

Irish people

Disabled people

Left handed people

People who couldn’t spell

Women

etc etc etc.

Times have changed for the better in pretty much every area which should be celebrated and which for a lot of people is what pride is about.  Banging on about how things used to be achieves nothing IMO and isn’t really relevant anymore anyway.

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7 minutes ago, Asthehills said:

But what is the point of going on about how things used to be when they are very obviously changing for the better?  It achieves nothing and if anything just slows down progress.

People who were treated unsympathetically and in was that wouldn’t be acceptable now is a long list.

Black people

Irish people

Disabled people

Left handed people

People who couldn’t spell

Women

etc etc etc.

Times have changed for the better in pretty much every area which should be celebrated and which for a lot of people is what pride is about.  Banging on about how things used to be achieves nothing IMO and isn’t really relevant anymore anyway.

And you can add pickets, strikers and football supporters to your lit as part of the etc etc

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18 minutes ago, Asthehills said:

But what is the point of going on about how things used to be when they are very obviously changing for the better?  It achieves nothing and if anything just slows down progress.

People who were treated unsympathetically and in was that wouldn’t be acceptable now is a long list.

Black people

Irish people

Disabled people

Left handed people

People who couldn’t spell

Women

etc etc etc.

Times have changed for the better in pretty much every area which should be celebrated and which for a lot of people is what pride is about.  Banging on about how things used to be achieves nothing IMO and isn’t really relevant anymore anyway.

 

9 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

And you can add pickets, strikers and football supporters to your lit as part of the etc etc

I’ve deliberately used policing of minority groups to widen the debate.

And there is still much distrust, amongst many, if not all,  of those minority groups.

The question has to be “is a community get to know you presence, rather than an actual risk and resourced presence for policing purposes”, necessary, a good thing, will it build bridges?

You must see they are two different issues.

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46 minutes ago, John Wright said:

The problem with your defence of a police presence, and your attempt to take these two down,

I’m really not trying to take anyone down but their claims about the police raping trans people at Pride events (that is specifically what he says) are fairly ridiculous. Also you can’t expect people to keep on harking back to the 1970s or 1980s. You experienced it and genuinely it must have been awful at that time. But it’s not the time these people were born in. I’m guessing they were born in the 1990s or later where they will have had experience of hardly any of the issues they use to justify their position. I still can’t see why some inclusivity events need to be a police free zone and others don’t. The minute someone does get beaten up by some idiot there will presumably then be a big inquest on why the police weren’t there to protect people. 

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19 minutes ago, Wavey Davey said:

I’m really not trying to take anyone down but their claims about the police raping trans people at Pride events (that is specifically what he says) are fairly ridiculous. Also you can’t expect people to keep on harking back to the 1970s or 1980s. You experienced it and genuinely it must have been awful at that time. But it’s not the time these people were born in. I’m guessing they were born in the 1990s or later where they will have had experience of hardly any of the issues they use to justify their position. I still can’t see why some inclusivity events need to be a police free zone and others don’t. The minute someone does get beaten up by some idiot there will presumably then be a big inquest on why the police weren’t there to protect people. 

They don’t make that claim. Go re read. Unless I’ve missed it.

At last you’ve started to get to the nub. It’s not just historic. It’s the genuine fear that members of some minorities have of the police and whether they’ll actually be treated fairly and equally, and how you then police such minority group events.

Im not suggesting appropriate operationally required policing is out. I’m not actually opposed to building bridges and establishing trust ( both ways ). I’m just doubting that a community police presence ( not an operationally determined policing presence ) “to reach out” will have the desired effect.

It takes generations for these type of folk memories to be overcome. And, as I’ve questioned, what is the mandate of the Isle of Pride directors and committee and how, when, and whom, did they consult, to accept apologies and agree non operational police presence?

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21 minutes ago, John Wright said:

They don’t make that claim. Go re read. Unless I’ve missed it.

At last you’ve started to get to the nub. It’s not just historic. It’s the genuine fear that members of some minorities have of the police and whether they’ll actually be treated fairly and equally, and how you then police such minority group events.

Yes members of some minorities have genuine fears of the police.

But be they genuine are these fears justified or are they in at least some way a result of the likes of our two friends whipping up a distrust of the police?

These fears were certainly justified on the Island decades ago but as many have pointed out things have moved on. The police have acknowledged they were more than heavy handed in implementing the law. I know many don’t accept their apology but I can’t see what more they can say. But let’s not revisit old arguments

As for Pride Isle of Man being a minority group event, I know of many heterosexual people who attended, in support of the gay and trans community and enjoy the music and the vibe etc, despite only having the status of “guests”, as these two would have it.

 I wasn’t there but I would suggest the day was enhanced by so many “straight”  people  ( and may I even dare say, police officers and other groups) attending. It seems a good time was had by all and I’ve not heard any reports of anyone not being treated or fairly.

 

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22 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

As for Pride Isle of Man being a minority group event, I know of many heterosexual people who attended, in support of the gay and trans community and enjoy the music and the vibe etc, despite only having the status of “guests”, as these two would have it.

I didn’t like their term guests either as I thought it was exclusive. It’s like come along if you want to but you’ll never be part of it just some sad rubber-necker we have to put up with. It’s largely why I couldn’t be arsed seeing what was going on. They were right on the committee members though they do appear to be largely middle aged housewives who want to show how “progressive” they are rather than the gay or trans people who you would expect to be on that sort of organizational committee. There’s a fair few professional committee sitters on there and you wonder what value they add. 

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42 minutes ago, BriT said:

I didn’t like their term guests either as I thought it was exclusive. It’s like come along if you want to but you’ll never be part of it just some sad rubber-necker we have to put up with. It’s largely why I couldn’t be arsed seeing what was going on. They were right on the committee members though they do appear to be largely middle aged housewives who want to show how “progressive” they are rather than the gay or trans people who you would expect to be on that sort of organizational committee. There’s a fair few professional committee sitters on there and you wonder what value they add. 

How is the committee selected? 
Is there a vote for positions?

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3 hours ago, John Wright said:

It takes generations for these type of folk memories to be overcome. And, as I’ve questioned, what is the mandate of the Isle of Pride directors and committee and how, when, and whom, did they consult, to accept apologies and agree non operational police presence?

I’d say that’s the biggest issue. I don’t know who appointed a load of apparent middle class busybodies to the Pride board and why they agreed to that approach. I agree it isn’t right and probably isn’t representative of who should be on a board dealing with an LGBTQ+ event. I don’t trust the police either but I don’t think I’d have much chance banning them from events I go to as I felt unsafe. A lot does seem to go back to this concept of people these day claiming they’re made to feel “unsafe” by things that are just normal parts of life in the 21st Century. 

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