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2 minutes ago, quilp said:

This "many more to come." You're referring to more possible deaths at Abbotswood, I presume, and not in the public domain. Unfortunately, it's quite probable though the sickest residents have wisely been transferred to Nobles and hopefully some will pull through. But for now, the recent spike of deaths have all been residents of the home and an exceptional case. The point in question is the risk to workers returning to their workplace. IoM government seem to think it's worth the perceived risk, and the danger has possibly lessened, as long as precautions are followed. It is a gamble, a tentative move to restoring some normalcy. At what point it would be safe for all is anyone's guess. 

££££

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13 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

I think Cannon fodder was not too far  of the mark.

You're over-dramatising. Those who don't feel safe about returning to work will have a choice, nobody is being forced into some sort of firing-line at the front. Personally, with my co-morbidities I'm looking to the end of June before I'll give it consideration. 

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21 minutes ago, quilp said:

If I remember correctly, the question was posed by the guy from Energy, in the very last few minutes.

Chris fro Energy asked q's about the vulnerable being able to draw Govt pay if they refused to work.

HQ reiterated that they would if they had a valid reason. This presumes that the persons employer agrees with that reason.

Again. HQ did not address the situation of that person being fired for refusing to work!

Interestingly, HQ did say (paraphrasing) , they would be paid under the Govt 280 quid scheme , if they had a 'Valid Reason' and could evidence that reason.

HQ says that it is an opportunity to go back to work but not compulsory but if they can't 'evidence' their reason for not working would that mean that they are 'Voluntary Unemployed' and would that affect their qualification?

He may have mis-spoke again?

In truth, it would be bizarre to be fired in the current situation but not beyond possibility . Do Island builders have 'Black Lists'?

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8 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

Each and everyone of those 12 people were human beings with loving families. They are not just fucking  statistics, they were real people with real families. 
How dare anyone just talk them about them as statistics. 

What has happened to us  for people to use numbers instead of names. Society has degenerated of late as it seems “social media” has taken over from decency and morals 

I don't think anyone is being inconsiderate of the emotional cost to the bereaved. Unfortunately, taken in the round, those who have died are statistics, this is unavoidable but it does not detract from the loss of a loved-one and I'm sure most people feel for those who have. Very few of us are that hard-hearted, I would hope.

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1 hour ago, finlo said:

Shouldn't of bigged themselves up offering 100 million in assistance if they had no intention of honouring it then!

somebody in the right place will be getting plenty of that money don't you worry, but you need a hotel to stand a chance.

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6 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

Not a “ blip” to a dozen families though and many more to come.

There's a lot of difficult concepts and difficult decisions being made here.  I'll have a go at a further explanation.  Possible long post ahead.

First the difference between 'public health' and what is generally known to be a medical consultation.  During this pandemic so far I've been involved in a fair bit of the former - modelling the numbers, trying to predict how many patients we'll have to look after, what to do if we get overwhelmed - how, for example, you decide on who gets the last ventilator if more than one person needs it - predicting how much oxygen we'll need... For this function I'm not thinking about individual patients - it's all numbers.  Sorry if that sounds dispassionate, but it has to be otherwise you'd go mad! We have about 5.2% of our population over 80, that's 4000 odd people.  I'm estimating how many of them might be frail, and what the fatality rate will be if they catch covid.  Numbers, numbers, numbers.  No people.  In my regular day job I frequently see patients over 80 - in that case they're individuals and I'll try to do my best for them, as if they were my mother or father.  But in the public health function it's all about maximising the health of the whole population, even though you know some will get ill and some will die.  Which is why we talk, perhaps insensitively, about blips, and clusters, and outbreaks etc.  I realise that all these 'cases' are somebody's mother/father/brother/sister but it doesn't help to dwell on that when doing the numbers.

Covid is not the only threat to health.  It may be the most prominent one at the moment, but there's so much happening that doesn't make the news much that when trying to balance the overall health of the population you have to take into consideration.  On Radio 4 today there was a top UK cancer doctor saying how more people would be dying of cancer later on than will die of covid.  Many of the people dying of covid would be dead within a year or so anyway.  Once again, sorry to be blunt, and I know they're all important to their families etc, but so are the patients not getting proper treatment for their cancer because of all the covid preparations, or suffering with their arthritis because they can't have their hips replaced, or going blind because their cataracts can't be extracted...

Then there's the economics.  Nobody likes to think that money is put before lives, but that's an emotional reaction, and emotions are best kept out of public policy decisions - it invariably leads to bad ones.  The fact is that if the economy tanks, with mass unemployment, nobody spending, nobody paying tax etc then we won't be able to afford a health service, or anything else.That will obviously have health consequences in the future and result in worse outcomes for individuals.

There are of course other aspects - society, domestic violence, mental health, suicides... All of these things have to be considered when making decisions as to how to manage this pandemic to minimise the overall harm to the population.

All the indications are that spread of coronavirus in the wider community here has slowed considerably and almost stopped. Nobody wanted an outbreak in a Nursing Home, and when that happens given the demographic that lives there it's inevitable that there will be multiple deaths.  But that doesn't mean you should continue the full lockdown based on the emotional reaction to that very (for many families) sad and distressing situation.  For the greater long-term good we have to get things going ASAP, while ensuring, by continuing the testing, tracing and isolation, that the spread remains minimal and manageable for the health service, and we never have to invoke the policy on ethical allocation of limited ITU resources that we were discussing the other day.

This island is doing pretty well here.  There will inevitably be mistakes made at press conferences, there will inevitably be measures brought in which haven't necessarily been fully thought through because we simply don't have the luxury of a 3 month consultation period and multiple Tynwald debates on every single thing that is decided.  Everyone is doing their best, no-one is making decisions lightly, and we're using the best multi-source evidence we can get.  I'm not sure what else we could be doing.

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22 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

Each and everyone of those 12 people were human beings with loving families. They are not just fucking  statistics, they were real people with real families. 
How dare anyone just talk about them as statistics. 

What has happened to us  for people to use numbers instead of names. Society has degenerated of late as it seems “social media” has taken over from decency and morals 

Sigh. I said, new cases, cases awaiting results and active cases are statistics. The people who have died are unfortunate casualties. Not statistics. 

Calm down, dilli! 

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18 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

££££

Some people are desperate and need those ££££'s. It's their choice and not for you to lecture them. You have a choice to isolate for as long as you think it's safe. If a second wave happens we'll/they'll have learned the hard way and the Island will be locked-down once more. Let's hope it not a rinse and repeat situation.

Thanks for that post wrighty...

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8 minutes ago, wrighty said:

All theThis island is doing pretty well here.  There will inevitably be mistakes made at press conferences, there will inevitably be measures brought in which haven't necessarily been fully thought through because we simply don't have the luxury of a 3 month consultation period and multiple Tynwald debates on every single thing that is decided.  Everyone is doing their best, no-one is making decisions lightly, and we're using the best multi-source evidence we can get.  I'm not sure what else we could be doing.

100% agree with that. 

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Has it been taken into account that those going back to work, having mostly received nothing will be in no hurry to report their symptoms, should they get them this time around

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, wrighty said:

There's a lot of difficult concepts and difficult decisions being made here.  I'll have a go at a further explanation.  Possible long post ahead.

First the difference between 'public health' and what is generally known to be a medical consultation.  During this pandemic so far I've been involved in a fair bit of the former - modelling the numbers, trying to predict how many patients we'll have to look after, what to do if we get overwhelmed - how, for example, you decide on who gets the last ventilator if more than one person needs it - predicting how much oxygen we'll need... For this function I'm not thinking about individual patients - it's all numbers.  Sorry if that sounds dispassionate, but it has to be otherwise you'd go mad! We have about 5.2% of our population over 80, that's 4000 odd people.  I'm estimating how many of them might be frail, and what the fatality rate will be if they catch covid.  Numbers, numbers, numbers.  No people.  In my regular day job I frequently see patients over 80 - in that case they're individuals and I'll try to do my best for them, as if they were my mother or father.  But in the public health function it's all about maximising the health of the whole population, even though you know some will get ill and some will die.  Which is why we talk, perhaps insensitively, about blips, and clusters, and outbreaks etc.  I realise that all these 'cases' are somebody's mother/father/brother/sister but it doesn't help to dwell on that when doing the numbers.

Covid is not the only threat to health.  It may be the most prominent one at the moment, but there's so much happening that doesn't make the news much that when trying to balance the overall health of the population you have to take into consideration.  On Radio 4 today there was a top UK cancer doctor saying how more people would be dying of cancer later on than will die of covid.  Many of the people dying of covid would be dead within a year or so anyway.  Once again, sorry to be blunt, and I know they're all important to their families etc, but so are the patients not getting proper treatment for their cancer because of all the covid preparations, or suffering with their arthritis because they can't have their hips replaced, or going blind because their cataracts can't be extracted...

Then there's the economics.  Nobody likes to think that money is put before lives, but that's an emotional reaction, and emotions are best kept out of public policy decisions - it invariably leads to bad ones.  The fact is that if the economy tanks, with mass unemployment, nobody spending, nobody paying tax etc then we won't be able to afford a health service, or anything else.That will obviously have health consequences in the future and result in worse outcomes for individuals.

There are of course other aspects - society, domestic violence, mental health, suicides... All of these things have to be considered when making decisions as to how to manage this pandemic to minimise the overall harm to the population.

All the indications are that spread of coronavirus in the wider community here has slowed considerably and almost stopped. Nobody wanted an outbreak in a Nursing Home, and when that happens given the demographic that lives there it's inevitable that there will be multiple deaths.  But that doesn't mean you should continue the full lockdown based on the emotional reaction to that very (for many families) sad and distressing situation.  For the greater long-term good we have to get things going ASAP, while ensuring, by continuing the testing, tracing and isolation, that the spread remains minimal and manageable for the health service, and we never have to invoke the policy on ethical allocation of limited ITU resources that we were discussing the other day.

This island is doing pretty well here.  There will inevitably be mistakes made at press conferences, there will inevitably be measures brought in which haven't necessarily been fully thought through because we simply don't have the luxury of a 3 month consultation period and multiple Tynwald debates on every single thing that is decided.  Everyone is doing their best, no-one is making decisions lightly, and we're using the best multi-source evidence we can get.  I'm not sure what else we could be doing.

I appreciate you mean well and Of course I know how clued up you are.

however if I  had a family member in Abbottswood ( sp)  I  would be devastated to see what was happening

 

Edited by dilligaf
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52 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

Not a “ blip” to a dozen families though and many more to come.

So did they not expect relatives in a care home not to die of something at some time? 

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Just now, Mr Newbie said:

So did they not expect relatives in a care home not to die of something at some time? 

You are a twat. I just hope to hell I don’t know you in “ real life “ Now fucking dare  you :pinch:

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2 minutes ago, Mr Newbie said:

So did they not expect relatives in a care home not to die of something at some time? 

I think the difference here is that in "normal" times, the dying relative can be surrounded by their loved ones at the end. With covid, family cannot say their goodbyes. It makes a hard time all the harder.

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2 minutes ago, the stinking enigma said:

Has it been taken into account that those going back to work, having mostly received nothing will be in no hurry to report their symptoms, should they get them this time around

We can only hope that whoever is in charge of their returning workers keep a close eye on those they suspect may be covering up any symptoms and ensures distancing. Daily temp readings and such. Management have a duty of care under law.

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