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1 hour ago, Lost Login said:

Who PK or Peter Murcott:D

To be a bit more serious PK is a bit of troll in this topic as it appears that he wants to simply ignore the adverse consequences of the position he has advocated. That is that we should do everything that we can to prevent any Covid 19 deaths. It is an admirable position but not one I take as I believe the consequences to the IoM population of taking that position will be more harmful that acknowledging there is a limit to what we can realistically do. Where the balance between the two is I have no idea and there will be a huge range of opinions and I could not say anybody is wrong or right.

My issue with PK is that he is simply trolling as he either he will not answer what he believes would be a reasonable number of missed cancer diagnoses etc or does not answer/just ignores the reality of the situation that there will be any adverse consequences. If his view was that whatever the adverse consequences were in respect of other health matters were worth it to protect against Covid 19 then whilst it might not be a position I agree with and I might argue was illogical, i.e. is saving one person dying from Covid 19 more important than saving 5 others from dying due to other health matters, there is a logic to the position. Simply ignoring the adverse consequences or pretending they don't exist is simply trolling which is why I earlier compared his behaviour to a child covering their ears, saying they can not hear you and then starting screaming, as that appears how PK is behaving. He simply does not want acknowledge their will be adverse consequences of his position and therefore he simply wants to ignore in case he hears something to the contrary. It may be the logic a young kids uses when they don't want to go to bed, "I never heard you say time for bed as I told you I could not hear you" it is trolling when you resort to that on an internet forum. 

I have already explained that accusing people of behaving like children is guaranteed to make an adult conversation impossible. I'm sure you understand that so I'm not sure what you think further bleating about it would achieve?

You could always try apologising of course.

ETA: @Lost Login

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Press Release from the Rob Vine Fund   Following the cessation of Motor Sport on the Isle of Man in the midst of the Covid-19 pandemic the Directors of the Rob Vine Fund, Registered Charity No.954

@Lost Login - (and anyone else who thinks this doesn't apply to them particularly) I seem to recall you're an accountant so you can do this. Set up your own model of exponential growth in numbers

There's a lot of difficult concepts and difficult decisions being made here.  I'll have a go at a further explanation.  Possible long post ahead. First the difference between 'public health' and

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10 minutes ago, Josem said:

The border options should be debated in public. We have a huge number of politicians, we pay them a chunk of money, and they should be debating important issues like this in public in Tynwald- not behind closed doors.

Today, IOM Today revealed that Clare Barber, a political member of the Department of Health and Social Care, has "still not seen any clinical advice" on the issue of returning residents.

I can accept that in a time-urgent emergency, they needed to make decisions in a (belated) hurry that didn't allow for normal Tynwald options back in March. But today, that urgency no longer exists - it is fine to delay a decision for a week or few to get it right.

You're making the assumption there that there is debate happening in private.  What actually seems to be happening is random decisions based on the opinions of whoever happens to have spoken to Quayle (or more likely the Chief Secretary) last.  What that article illustrates is that they still haven't sorted out what the policy should be over returnees after dithering over it for weeks and weeks and giving the impression on several occasions that it had been sorted.  It's not even as if it was a difficult problem to solve - self-isolation enforced with doorstep conditions for the quarantine period were the obvious solution from the start and implemented quickly elsewhere.  

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6 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

You're making the assumption there that there is debate happening in private.  What actually seems to be happening is random decisions based on the opinions of whoever happens to have spoken to Quayle (or more likely the Chief Secretary) last.  What that article illustrates is that they still haven't sorted out what the policy should be over returnees after dithering over it for weeks and weeks and giving the impression on several occasions that it had been sorted.  It's not even as if it was a difficult problem to solve - self-isolation enforced with doorstep conditions for the quarantine period were the obvious solution from the start and implemented quickly elsewhere.  

Hah, yes!

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4 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

You're making the assumption there that there is debate happening in private.  What actually seems to be happening is random decisions based on the opinions of whoever happens to have spoken to Quayle (or more likely the Chief Secretary) last.  What that article illustrates is that they still haven't sorted out what the policy should be over returnees after dithering over it for weeks and weeks and giving the impression on several occasions that it had been sorted.  It's not even as if it was a difficult problem to solve - self-isolation enforced with doorstep conditions for the quarantine period were the obvious solution from the start and implemented quickly elsewhere.  

I cannot believe that the Dept of Infrastructure were tasked with Quarantine when it  would appear to be a job for Home Affairs as the process would follow people bailed by the court who are checked upon by the police.

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The border issue is both really simple and really complex, and I don't envy those in charge one little bit.

The simple bit is that the UK is still an absolute basket case and until that is sorted there can be no general travel

The complex bit is things like that case of the family whose mother has died and the kids want to come home to be with their dad.

There does need to be a way to help people get back on compassionate grounds, but that's bound to be really difficult to judge, and if you let one group in while denying another, well it is just going to cause more hassle.

We've just got to wait, and hope that the UK get their shit together quickly.

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12 minutes ago, Whatnonsence said:

I cannot believe that the Dept of Infrastructure were tasked with Quarantine when it  would appear to be a job for Home Affairs as the process would follow people bailed by the court who are checked upon by the police.

That would mean Cregeen in charge!! Given it Harmer who is just above cregeen in intelligence stakes!

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12 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

You're making the assumption there that there is debate happening in private.  What actually seems to be happening is random decisions based on the opinions of whoever happens to have spoken to Quayle (or more likely the Chief Secretary) last.  What that article illustrates is that they still haven't sorted out what the policy should be over returnees after dithering over it for weeks and weeks and giving the impression on several occasions that it had been sorted.  It's not even as if it was a difficult problem to solve - self-isolation enforced with doorstep conditions for the quarantine period were the obvious solution from the start and implemented quickly elsewhere.  

When I heard about these draconian measures, plus the costs, I was forced to conclude that they didn't really know what to do. Not only because the Covid-19 situation was a first but, to be fair, the Special Powers were as well.

So I think they went for the "safety first" option that covered a lot of bases. Seen to be doing something - check. Hotel accomodation is decent - check. Safeguarding the returnees - check. Reassuring the at risk populace - check. Being a complete and utter pain in the arse - check.

Had I been on a coach with police outriders I would have found it funny but being treated like a criminal did not amuse some. Plus no comforts like alcohol, no complimentary newspapers for a week, no food parcels with treats etc, no cooking facilities to prep your own scoff, only one hour outside which was disgraceful really, and most importantly little or no human interaction.

But self-isolating at home requires a degree of trust. So rather than get into that risk calculation snake-pit, when there was no real need to, they didn't.

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I don’t want to knock Mr Varley’s amazing effort but the total lack of social distancing being observed was somewhat disappointing, I doubt I was the only one to notice this, it’s genuinely lovely to see everyone out cheering him on but these aren’t normal times.

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1 hour ago, Golfer said:

Turning away from the arguments, no new cases today again and now only 11 active cases.

HOwie has asked for a paper on border options for CoMin this week!

And there in lies part of the problem. A politician with limited if any strategic insight demands an options paper in now 3 days, for what is an extremely complex conundrum. Doesn't allow a lot of time beyond instinctive and knee-jerk thinking aimed at pleasing masser'. 

The entire covid emergency plan was derived over a one day weekend workshop in which the great and the good proclaimed *little Britain voice "I want that one". As in they had seen it in the news. Thereafter CoMin egos went into command and control overdrive. The issue being it will take many months to dig them back out of the enormous hole that they dug in a matter of days.

There is no success story here. The borders shut, they traced the few who had it and it went away. That is not the work of genius. 

Interesting rumour has it the past few recorded cases have been brought back the Island by keyworkers.

Keep borders closed, we all live and a relatively normal life, but the Steam Packet removes a boat and reduces sailings. We all starve and raw materials stop.

Open borders, we all die again, a bit embarrassing really

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6 minutes ago, english zloty said:

Interesting rumour has it the past few recorded cases have been brought back the Island by keyworkers.

That is apparently true. Leaving you to question what benefit to society has anyone done by being locked up for weeks when key workers have pretty much had free reign to do what they like including coming into the IOM and starting work next day. Different rules for us peasants though. The biggest failure so far is the presumption that we are all too stupid and need to be locked up for everyone’s protection, but they can be trusted to do what they like largely unchecked and without the right protective equipment. 

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